How to Nerf the Shoshone [Brainstorming]

[JustinianIV]

I never said it is not an advantage to grab a vital position first against an equal opponent. But additional land upon that grab??!? Maybe we play a different game though, because it happens very rarely that I have a whole lot of contested border situations that result in a settlement race in which additional land also gives me a vital edge. And all this while war is no topic at that very moment AND I don't have the spare money to buy the SO vital tiles that will be grabed away from me in an instant.

If you really think they are OP I challange you to a duel map and I play as Poland, you play as Shoshone. PM me if you are interested.

My experiences have been different. I think my suggestion of their UA only applying to their first two cities is reasonable.

I don't see what us squaring off will prove in this case, though it may be fun. Still I don't play MP, and what I say is mainly in the context of them being in control of a human player against AIs. If we were to play each other, I would insist on you being America

The Pathfinder is profoundly overestimated. It sounds good on the paper, but don't forget that he gets obsolete in an instant and you need to be lucky twice to make him pay off. Other Civs could get the exact same bonuses AND you have to get a few ruins in the first place. (which isn't guaranteed at all, unless you tune the map settings to your best liking)

With units like the Longbowmen, Cho-Ku-No and abilites like Polands or Greeces... I will never understand how Shoshone can be considered OP. I guess it's this typical new = OP overreaction.

Perhaps, but to me it is also easy access to precious precious early faith, not to mention the other things. But again, I think either their UA or their UU needs a bit of nerfing. Not much.

 

[evilcat]

Waste of time.
Nothing good will come from it, any try on nerfs will end with Shoshone being some blunt that nobody will see difference that from some generic civilizacion.

And if you start swinging nerf bat, then you will need to kick Poland, Maya, Arabia, Korea... and nerfs will not result in any form of balance, it will just take away unique taste of playing each civ, and everything will end same.

I woudl rather see some buff, or reworks in case where current state is of civs make them playable but not better in anything special. Like Byzantium, Denmark, Sweden...

 

[JokerJace]

Even then you would first have to give some valid arguments to them being too powerful. Haven't seen any so far. TBH I consider them slightly above average. I could name 10 civs that are stronger and anybody with some clue of the game would agree.

 

[Wodan]

And this is why Shoshone are good. If I didn't have a strategic advantage over-extending like that, I would have chose a different approach. Lets say you're starting in pretty much the complete opposite situation, in the middle of a desert in the middle of a pangea, surrounded by folks...

Sounds interesting. Hardly OP. In the same situation, with any other Civ, if you didn't get Desert Folklore, you would probably quit because you'd be shafted. Being a flexible civ is hardly broken and makes them interesting. I'm all in favor of interesting gameplay that invites diverse strategies (as opposed to min/maxing with each game looking like carbon copies of each other). In your desert/Pangaea situation you basically used your creativity to make for a fun, enjoyable game. In my book, that is perfect game design.

I think either their UA or their UU needs a bit of nerfing. Not much. I think my suggestion of their UA only applying to their first two cities is reasonable.

Reasonable? Sure. Boring as fark? Yep. After your first 2 cities, turns them into a copy of all other civs? Yep.

Sorry, but I hate it. I think they're fine as is. They're not broken, they're interesting, and what else do we want?

 

[Jimdigriz]

Going by my current game I have to agree.

3 or 4 composite bowman in the dark ages is a bit overkill. And picking up a couple of Faith ruins really gives a massive advantage in religion which Im utilising to a great extent at present - I have so much faith coming in (and gold) that I sometimes have to think about what to spend it all on.

I think limiting the upgrade weapons to Archer is fair. I love exploring as much as possible early game so Shoshone is just a no-brainer. Going to be very difficult for me not to pick them again for my next game!

 

[Wodan]

Personally, I daresay that people are annoyed when they have a city in anticipation of a nice, orderly expansion to get luxuries and nat wonders in the 3rd ring. Then the Shoshone do a city bomb next door and that, I agree, is big time annoying. You know what? Annoyance is a factor of good game design. We want it all sugar and light or something? Seems to me that is a big incentive for player interaction because you now want to go take that city from them. Player interaction = good game design.

And, we can only blame ourselves because we could have bought those tiles if we weren't such cheapskates, or sent out troops to blockade or attack wayward settlers.

 

[JokerJace]

Going by my current game I have to agree.

3 or 4 composite bowman in the dark ages is a bit overkill. And picking up a couple of Faith ruins really gives a massive advantage in religion which Im utilising to a great extent at present - I have so much faith coming in (and gold) that I sometimes have to think about what to spend it all on.

I think limiting the upgrade weapons to Archer is fair. I love exploring as much as possible early game so Shoshone is just a no-brainer. Going to be very difficult for me not to pick them again for my next game!

You guys seem all to be arguing out of a position of virtually limitless ruins. And even then this would be a major advantage for any civilzation and/or gone after the first couple of turns. Even with the time to distribute them upon any number of units?! Playing against yourself on hotseat on settler difficulty on a huge map with 2 civs does not make for a great argument.

And having an ability that grants a huge faith bonus in early game that becomes obsolete a bit later into the game is OP? Hey Boudicca, you are now officially OP!

Why don't you take all Civs and disable everything that makes them unique? Would be a very balanced game I guess.

 

[Abraxis]

Why don't you stop arguing for the sake of being a contrarian and leave this debate to people trying to achieve something outside masturbating their own ego?

 

[seasnake]

I'd prefer to improve civs like Germany, Japan and America instead of nerfing fun ones. I think maybe the should make the upgrade to Composite Bowman available ONLY if you have the pre-req tech, but that's all.

Remember, Faith is not an option until after turn 20, and techs are not available out of the ancient era. Considering you have to find the ruins and cycle through some of the other options it really doesn't seem so bad. And the Comanche Rider is a so-so unit in my opinion, so having a good UA isn't really a problem.

 

[JokerJace]

Why don't you stop arguing for the sake of being a contrarian and leave this debate to people trying to achieve something outside masturbating their own ego?

I tried and then you told me something about not having played the game or so. This post is not helpful either. Maybe you start by relating to some of the arguments I made before?

 

[JustinianIV]

C'mon lads, we are civ-players. We are gentlemen!

This isn't callofdutyfanatics.com

 

[Rathelon]

How 'bout...don't play Shoshone if you think they are too easy.

 

[feralminded]

OP is probably the wrong description because as asserted above at high difficulty levels (Emperor+) more focused civs will simply win more games when properly executed. That said Shoshone enjoys the title of "most flexible civ in the game". Their bonuses allow you to successfully play any style you want. The UA is obviously phenominal for going wide but is simply nice to have for Tall as well. The only strategy that won't find it useful is OCC. That said the UU picks up where the UA leaves off and can be used to jumpstart religion, or upgrade into a very early CB (if you can get two of these you have a viable super early rush against most civs), or just do the culture/tech/population thing to jumpstart your economy.

This results in a fantastic race that could possibly have the best win-rate at Emperor+, with random map type, and the rule being you play the first map that comes up. That said few Deity players ever do this and often choose a race/map/starting position that is exploitable. The only other race that may be able to compete with Shoshone in this way are of course Poland who also facilitate a diverse amount of potentialities.

 

[3drawegroeg]

Pathfinders are fairly good, but picking ruin results is far from auto win. With my usual set up I'll be lucky to find 2-3. Each result can only be chosen once, and the time I used them I there was no faith bonus option. It basically boils down to striking the map options from the list. Comanche rider is mostly thematic. It's nice, but nothing to build a strategy around. Having additional tiles early in a cities life is a pretty big boon, but those tiles can be bought or gotten with normal city expansion. The thing I wonder about that I haven't seen anyone else talk about is the 15% combat bonus in friendly land. It's kind of a powerful throw in when it's basically the Ethiopian ability without a fewer cities than requirement. It's a fun package, but near midpack strengthwise in my estimation.

 

[Resipsa]

Call me crazy, call me insane, but I prefer America to the Shoshone. You'll hit more ruins and odds are that although you'll get some turds you'll get good ones too.

America's +1 sight is a boon for scouts, trebuchets, and other ranged units
Late game bombers starting with evasion are really good.

 

[MerchantCo]

Wow, this discussion really got off the ground.

 

[Glassmage]

Nerf Shoshone extra tiles from 8 to 6 is good.

 

[Nickbonista]

People say early head start can mean nothing etc, but it can really help, say getting early wonders due to higher pop and therefore production. If you can get ahead on science while maintaining your buildings wonders and military then the rest of the world is playing catch up

 

[MerchantCo]

Exactly what Nick said. An early game boost can really help later on.

 

[Tachii]

Wait, you can get faith bonuses from choosing your own ruin?... And you can upgrade another pathfinder to a CB?...

When I first popped a ruin every option was there except for getting faith. ._. I play on Immortal if that makes any difference.