How would you change China?

[amadeus]

Originally posted by Toasty
Of course, rmsharpe types from his multi-hundred-thousand-dollar home, infront of his gloriously advanced piece of electronic equipment, in a well-developed suburb of Minnesota.

Ooh! The class warfare game. Congratulations, you lost!

Well, I'll have you know that I live in a middle class home in a middle class neighborhood in a small town.

Don't try that class warfare crap with me, got it?

 

[ZultanofZex]

Noooooo! rmsharpe, you should have replied that you do live in a Playboy mansion built on the charred bones of Indians your granfather killed thanx to liberal gun laws and that you have a black butler!! That would have made things more interesting!

 

[amadeus]

Do you really think I'd let a BLACK in my house, with all the diseases they carry? I had my illegally-smuggled Hispanic maid set up a basketball hoop and put some rap records in the dumpster next door so they can feel at home.

By the way, if I ever had a black butler, he'd only work the daytime. Anyone you can't see at night you can't trust!

 

[ZultanofZex]

Do you really think I'd let a BLACK in my house, with all the diseases they carry? I had my illegally-smuggled Hispanic maid set up a basketball hoop and put some rap records in the dumpster next door so they can feel at home.

Outstanding, son! Buy you a case of beer for that one!

 

[amadeus]

Excellent! Now I can sell cans to elementary school children! Mmm..profit...

 

[ZultanofZex]

Make sure they are minors and black!

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by Toasty
Exactly like where you're working for pennies a day while being whipped and oppressed, making some other guy rich because his father was high man on the totem pole.

Sounds like what my fathers and uncles did in communist East Germany before they escaped, or were imprisoned, or drank themselves to death.

Originally posted by Baleog
Democracies are less stable especially to the international community. Especially if you have different government taking up power every 4/5 years with different values .... and discussions have to restart with another nation because of a changed stance.

Most democratic nations aren't that seperated in the value of their elected governments. The end result in the long term tends to be the middle ground between the native political spectrum.
Plus Democracies tend to honor the agreements of previous governments even if they didn't agree with them. And most dictatorships are far from stable.

 

[Toasty]

I didn't intend to make class warfare, rmsharpe, I'm saying that your life can't compare to what those people went through in the early- to mid-twentieth century. To them, the things offered by Communism WERE a dream, be it a crappy apartment and an 80 hour work week.

Of course, they did end up at the same place they started really, but this is 20/20 hindsight.

 

[amadeus]

Toasty, Communism is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Saying that it is victory for the "working class" is an absolute lie -- all it does is punish the people that do work and reward those that need the state to prop them up.

Saying that Communism was a dream was certainly never in my family's history. When my great-grandfather came over here from Great Britain, he settled in Minnesota and started a farm. Never got a dime from the government. His son, my grandfather, became a shipbuilder and an auto mechanic. He worked 10 hours a day for three straight years during World War II without a single day off. Never got a dime from the government (excl. social security.) My grandfather on the other side in the family, he hopped railroad cars for the first years of his life, and never got further than eigth grade in school. He dropped out and became a ditchdigger, until he was drafted to fight over in Germany, but then came back and dug ditches for another thirty five years. He never got a dime in welfare from the government.

Most of my forefathers were poor, but they WORKED for the little they had.

 

[Fayadi]

Democracy isnt necessarily be the best thing.
India is Democracy but average Chinese had 2/3 more dollars than average Indian.
For what I will do,I will abolish the Communist party and rename it with Chinese Nationalist Socialist Party and be the party chairman I would ensure that the citizens have human rights like the rights to campaign.Actually the CCP already granted the citizens these rights,CCP in 21 st century is different from what is 10 over years ago when the massacred people in Tiananmen.I just dont like the CCP because I dont like their history of abusing human rights and pulling down the economy,the present one is fine but I really WANT THE NAME TO BE CHANGED.CCP's only achievement is to raise the Chinese Pride.
Anyway,many people in China believed either the party will collapse or the party name will be changed BY the next decade

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by Fayadi
Democracy isnt necessarily be the best thing.
India is Democracy but average Chinese had 2/3 more dollars than average Indian.

And the average Japanese individual has 7 times as many dollars as the average Chinese? What's your point?
I hope you're not suggesting China is wealthier than India because of democracy/autocracy. If you wish to do a worldwide comparison between individual wealth and government styles I would suggest that the Japan/China ratio would stay fairly constant.

Just imagine what that figure would be if China were democratic?

 

[feistymongol]

Originally posted by Greadius

And the average Japanese individual has 7 times as many dollars as the average Chinese? What's your point?
I hope you're not suggesting China is wealthier than India because of democracy/autocracy. If you wish to do a worldwide comparison between individual wealth and government styles I would suggest that the Japan/China ratio would stay fairly constant.

Just imagine what that figure would be if China were democratic?

How is this accurate? You aren't taking into consideration the size of the population. Japan has a population of 120 million or so people concentrated on a much smaller landmass. This is easier for one government under a democratic system to control. Economies do not stay perfectly constant regardless of population size. For instance, if China shifted towards a system of government like Japan's it would still face ENORMOUS complexities in regulating its commerce with 1.3 billion people.

 

[Pongui]

Remember where the Chinese were before their revolution. Go ahead and contrast that with Japan or America at the time. China has made incredible progress since then, and it would be thoughtless to belittle that.

And now? I see an economic contradiction, of course, with capitalist China coexisting with communist China. That seems to be intentional, and, somehow that's working for them, so in my confusion I presume no suggestions.

 

[ranskaldan]

Having constructed a hasty rebuttal, I realized that absolutely no one was going to read such a firefilled paragraph. So instead, I paste, in full glory from another thread, a moderate, calm "essay" that I wrote:

China is best described as a far-flung, vastly agricultural empire. Its "golden age" has obviously passed, and for the past two centuries, it's been absolutely dirt poor. The Communists took power in 1949 and wreaked havoc on the country for the next 30 years, setting back its development by decades, killing 20-50 million people, and destroying the lives of 3 generations of Chinese.

But the question then is: why do I, and many people, still support Communist rule?

The important reason is that they are no longer what they were. Today's China is a market economy, its economy is growing heathily, and its standard of living is rising at an extremely rapid rate. 25 years ago it would be inconceivable to think about simple things as supermarkets or privately owned cars in China. Today, from where I sit, I can see dozens of Buicks, BMW's and Honda's and other cars on the streets below, there's a supermarket downstairs no way different from one in the West, and I have high-speed internet access and is able to chat and send emails to anyone in New York or London or even Taipei.

The point being, most of the disadvantages of dictatorships are not there anymore.

However, the staggering facts about the rest of China is horrifying. 900 million peasants live across the country. About 10% (this is an estimate) are idle and unemployed. The glittering picture that I painted is found only in the major cities and their immediate countryside suburbs, like Beijing and Shanghai. As we go further west, rising into the mountains, the standard of living steadily drops until it reachs Somalian levels.

The thing is, if the autocracy has brought wealth to the cities, the logic follows, shouldn't it be able to do it to the countryside, albeit at a slower pace? Why fix something that's not broken? If current trends are projected into the future, wouldn't China be a rich and powerful nation in 50 years? That is the real hope of most Chinese.

On the other hand, what if democracy arrives today? The 900 million peasants would immediately overwhelm the 300 million city dwellers. The old Maoist Communist regime drew its support from the countryside, and the fear is, if democracy is opened, the peasantry would overwhelm the cities in a terrifying tyranny of the majority, set up Mao-like regime(s), and any hope of social embetterment, wealth, power, happiness etc would be lost. What would rule instead would be ignorance. Mao was a peasant and his regime was based on destroying the cities and the wealth to serve the peasants (and even that didn't work since the peasants died too in the experiment). Wouldn't history, therefore repeat itself??

This is the reasoning that's in the minds of most Chinese, at least city-dwelling ones. It's got nothing to do with the government propaganda since it won't even admit to being a dictatorship. The fact that this is believed in by the most anti-communist people you can find, including people living abroad, people working in foreign enterprises, small business owners, people who suffered through the Cultural Revolution, etc, shows just what powerful reasoning it is. And I believe it too.

I hope you have followed me through.

 

[amadeus]

Originally posted by Sean Lindstrom
Remember where the Chinese were before their revolution. Go ahead and contrast that with Japan or America at the time. China has made incredible progress since then, and it would be thoughtless to belittle that.

Like Stalin, Mao Zedong built his country on the backs of starving citizens. 60 million people dead is not a victory.

 

[Jimcat]

Well, some reactions after reading the last bunch of posts...

At this point in China's history, it's really not even a communist state any more. The only reason we call it that is beacause the ruling body calls itself the "Communist Party". But I don't think that Marx, Lenin, or even Mao would say that the government or society of China today is anything like classical communism.

What we have in China is rule by a one-party, autocratic state, and that is the source of the problem. The ruling party doles out political, economic, and legal favors to its cronies, resulting in a breakdown of the rule of law and indifference to the welfare of the people. The ruling party also outlaws political and religious freedom, a violation of basic human rights. In sum, China is being run by a relative handful of people whose only interest is in their own power and prosperity.

Some people have said that Western-style democracy as practiced in the US or elsewhere may not be the right system of government for China. They may even be right. The USA manages a stable democracy of 280 million people because most of them are relatively well-educated and prosperous. China may fare better if it concentrates on improving the quality of life before radically restructuring its politcal system.

BUT, that does not mean that the government China has now is the best one. Before the quality of life can improve, China needs to clean up its corruption and bureaucratic inefficiency, ensure that the rule of law is applied fairly and universally, and allow the people to express themselves freely. Right now China is stuck with a corrupt leadership and no way to change it, and that is what needs to be changed before anything else can happen.

So, what I think would work in China would be to implement the following, in order:

1. End the ruling party's monopoly on political power.

2. Allow freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and other basic human rights.

3. Purge the system of corrupt bureaucrats.

4. Devote massive efforts to education, medicine, agricultural and industrial improvements, housing, and other quality-of-life improvements.

5. Let new political and cultural leaders emerge naturally.

Given that, (as I said before), the Chinese people will be able to determine for themselves how their country should best be run.

P.S. to rmsharpe: I'm surprised that I've found your posts in this thread to be consistently insightful, funny, or both. Funny how we disagree so much on American politics but find ourselves on the same page regarding China.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Yep, the ideas being put forth are fairly common sense, and one concurs generally with the notions espoused by feistymongol and others.

at rmsharpe's classic humour.

 

[newfangle]

Hmmm, I think I'll back out of this one. All I am trying to convey is that China would benefit more from a socialist government, rather than capitalist (not to be confused with Democracy). Mao seems a little Stalinist, and obviously did more harm than good. But given its huge population, China would most likely benefit from a little wealth sharing.

As much as it may appear, I am not a Stalinist, or even a Communist. I simply believe that countries that are less fortunate than the ones in North America or EU may benefit from a much more left-wing approach to government. Anyways, my thoughts, not yours.

 

[Ozz]

Originally posted by Sean Lindstrom
Remember where the Chinese were before their revolution. Go ahead and contrast that with Japan or America at the time. China has made incredible progress since then, and it would be thoughtless to belittle that.

And now? I see an economic contradiction, of course, with capitalist China coexisting with communist China. That seems to be intentional, and, somehow that's working for them, so in my confusion I presume no suggestions.

Japan was the same, a 14th century state with the tech of the
20th century. (until 1945). Alot of Asia has 20 century tech, but
have they the culture to match it? The western world developed
and grew with the tech, and we have a hard time handling it.

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by feistymongol
How is this accurate? You aren't taking into consideration the size of the population.

That is why I used per-capita purchasing power. That means population was calculated in.

Originally posted by feistymongol
This is easier for one government under a democratic system to control.

The point of democracy is that the government does need to control. A decentralized structure based on local democracy wouldn't need the state looking over the people's shoulder to make sure they're behaving.

Originally posted by feistymongol
For instance, if China shifted towards a system of government like Japan's it would still face ENORMOUS complexities in regulating its commerce with 1.3 billion people.

Regulating commerce? As comapred to the complexities involved in dictating commerce?
Do you honestly think a movement towards a democracy would result in MORE regulation, as compared to less?

Originally posted by ranskaldan
Today, from where I sit, I can see dozens of Buicks, BMW's and Honda's and other cars on the streets below, there's a supermarket downstairs no way different from one in the West, and I have high-speed internet access and is able to chat and send emails to anyone in New York or London or even Taipei.

That is odd... I just read an article in Time about a recent crackdown on Internet Cafe's that didn't use the proper site-blocking software. Glad you have that freedom...

Originally posted by ranskaldan
The glittering picture that I painted is found only in the major cities and their immediate countryside suburbs, like Beijing and Shanghai.

So the worst parts of dictatorships only exist outside the cities, and you live in a city, so go Communist part!?
Not surprising, but disapointing. As much as I don't expect anyone to look out for other people's interests there seems to be a pervading cultural sense that democracy is the way to go, even with its flaws.
After all, it is the worst system, except for all the others.

Originally posted by ranskaldan
Why fix something that's not broken?

Its obviously broken for the peasants.

Originally posted by ranskaldan
The 900 million peasants would immediately overwhelm the 300 million city dwellers. The old Maoist Communist regime drew its support from the countryside, and the fear is, if democracy is opened, the peasantry would overwhelm the cities in a terrifying tyranny of the majority, set up Mao-like regime(s), and any hope of social embetterment, wealth, power, happiness etc would be lost.

You, sir, don't understand democracy. Not at all, I'm afraid.
In the hopes of protecting your own wealth you're willing to sacrifice their human rights and oppertunity for improvement. Ironically, you think a lot like the American founding fathers. The tyranny of the majority is a myth; Madison was wrong. But, that notwithstanding, if it IS your fear perhaps you'd benefit from learning how they managed to establish a democracy, retain their wealth, and, in time, spread it amongst everyone. That is why property rights and minority rights were important to the founding fathers, and can be in a transitional democracy as well.

Originally posted by ranskaldan
Wouldn't history, therefore repeat itself??

Wasn't the original peasant rebellion based on the inequalities of the cities-peasantry and those benefiting from foreign aid?
Doesn't the CCP today act a lot like the Chinese Nationalists in the 1920's? If you're afraid of history repeating itself, I'd suggest you recognize the legitimate grievences and redress them on your own terms instead hoping your government can crack down on dissidents indefinately.

Originally posted by ranskaldan
The fact that this is believed in by the most anti-communist people you can find, including people living abroad, people working in foreign enterprises, small business owners, people who suffered through the Cultural Revolution, etc, shows just what powerful reasoning it is.

Your sense of justice and morality has been bribed into silence. I hope you realize how unrealistic your fear of the 'ignorant' peasants grabbing your wealth away is under a truely democratic system.