Hugo Chavez and the CIA?

Originally posted by TheDuckOfFlanders
Though there is ,and always been ,great suspicion that te CIA was activly involved ,if not the starters in the whole coup itself.
From Chavez's perspective, he has a whole lot to gain by blaming outsiders for his domestic political trouble. Granted, American history in the region doesn't speak well to its defense, but more than likely he threw out a red herring to gain support & surpress oppisition.

I'd have done the same.

Originally posted by TheDuckOfFlanders
An American (granted probably leftist) newspaper on the matter:
http://www.counterpunch.org/blum0414.html
Counterpunch is not a newspaper, but a website that is dedicated to making Bush look as bad as possible.

They're amazingly pragmatic in their goals, bouncing all over the spectrum when it suits, but they're far from a news source.

Originally posted by TheDuckOfFlanders
Another article ,Independant new-Zealand press:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0204/S00059.htm
That isn't an article, its an editorial.

A speculative one at that.

I hope you carry far more sources into this discussion than an anti-Bush website and an editorial.

Originally posted by TheDuckOfFlanders
In america people tend to think more that one must create his own "freedom" with the intellectual potential he has ,while in europe people think more that people of any intelectual backgroud (so even the stupid) should have right on basic economical equality.
Based on some of the threads we've seen about "Tell me about ...", it appeared that people in America have very similar social support structures.

Originally posted by TheDuckOfFlanders
A president that would have more supported the rich classes and the "middle class" (wich is in comparison to venezuela's general poppulation still pretty rich) more ,would have eventually not givin enough support to the poor classes who still are the majority of the Venezuelan people ,and thus would have been less democratic than Chavez ,who would have supported the biggest poppulation group and thus wo would have ben the most democratic.
Believe it or not, there is more to people's political leanings than just class. As a matter of fact, many people support politics that have nothing to do with their class structure. Marx is rolling in his grave right now.

Originally posted by TheDuckOfFlanders
If the majority of a country's poppulation feel's that the Country's wealth should be devided more equally ,then it's a democratic move for a president to follow those wishes ,and it would be un-democratic to not to.
If the majority of a country believes the minority should be put to work as slave laborers it would be democratic too. Not good policy, but democratic.
 
If the majority of a country believes the minority should be put to work as slave laborers it would be democratic too. Not good policy, but democratic.

I think you want to make a sarcastic note with this ,though it carries few weith since in about every country slave labor is prevented by law ,including in Venezuela ,and in this comparison the same would be possible in the U.S.A to.

In any case ,Chavez is democraticly elected by the majority of it's people toghether with his political agenda of wich that majority is aware of.Whether those people vote'd for him for underlying class reason's or from out their ideoligy ,it still doesn't dismiss the fact that he is democraticly elected ,and that he carries trough an agenda that is aproved by the majority of the people by the fact that they did elect him.
With that in mind ,i want to come back upon the fact that the U.S in no way condemned the extra-constitutional termination of a democratically-elected president.A fact that raises suspicion on their possible involvement in the putch.A fact that also detere's the U.S justification for a war against Iraq with the goal to get rid of a un-democratic leader.

Youre point upon the recourse's i provide is granted by me ,ill try to find more "article's".Although no article will provide for more than mere speculation upon the matter.The fact is that i never have stated that it's 100% sure that the CIA was involved in the putch ,i posted the tread title with a question mark to provoke discussion on the matter.What i can say is that there are many people around the world truly believing that the chance of CIA involvement in the putch is highly likely ,given the U.S history in the South America ,and the fact that Chavez his policy goes straith against American interrests in that region.
 
This is a 'democractically elected leader' who's constitution allows for a mid term referendum to be held on whether he should remain in power but who declared that 'Even if 100% of the vote was against me it would still make no difference'. This is a leader who after a man was shot in broad daylight in front of dozens of witnesses and arrested immediately refused to have the person charged because he was a member of his party and the murdered victim was an opposition member. This is a leader who's pilot defected to the US and detailed numerous meetings of the Chavez government with Al Quiada contacts after September 11 and a deal Chavez has made to give the group a million dollars worth of support.

Yeah lets all give this democratic leader a big round of applause. :rolleyes:

Kentonio
 
Like Greadius asked DuckofFlanders, some articles or links would be appreciate to back up these accusations.
 
This is a 'democractically elected leader' who's constitution allows for a mid term referendum to be held on whether he should remain in power but who declared that 'Even if 100% of the vote was against me it would still make no difference'. This is a leader who after a man was shot in broad daylight in front of dozens of witnesses and arrested immediately refused to have the person charged because he was a member of his party and the murdered victim was an opposition member. This is a leader who's pilot defected to the US and detailed numerous meetings of the Chavez government with Al Quiada contacts after September 11 and a deal Chavez has made to give the group a million dollars worth of support.

And if you are going to use this as an argument ,you'll have to back this up with proof. :rolleyes:

Chavez having link's with Al-Quiada ,man what utter bull. :rolleyes:
 
Ok lets play..

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/346jorji.asp

http://www.judicialwatch.org/3054.shtml

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-osorio010803.asp

http://www.militaresdemocraticos.com/articulos/en/20030105-01.html

http://www.intellnet.org/news/?type=category&value=Hugo Chavez

Those cover mostly the Al Quaeda business. Judicial Watch are helping a Sep. 11 family sue Venezuela for $100 million over their support for Al Quaeda, you'll also find that in those links above.

As for the other allegations there are many, many sites and links on the internet leading to them, the best is probably this one http://www.militaresdemocraticos.com/articulos/en/20030105-05.html though it is the site an opposition group to Chavez so I fully expect you to say it isnt reliable. One point worth noting however is that that group Militares Democraticos consists of a large number of very high ranking military officers who left the armed forces of Venezuela in order to conduct a totally peaceful protest.

Kentonio
 
Some "article's" or whatever you may call them on the subject.Mostly from leftists source's though ,so most probably you will take this as Biased.In any case i already agreed there was no 100% certainty or proof backing up these accusation's.

http://www.left-turn.org/feature/archive/venezuela/administration.html

http://pd.cpim.org/2002/april21/04212002_edit.htm

(In dutch)
http://www.ptb.be/scripts/article.phtml?section=A2ABBUDB&obid=17134

(In german)
http://www.uni-kassel.de/fb10/frieden/regionen/Venezuela/putsch.html

(in spannish) (french site)
http://abacq.free.fr/2003/lir005.htm

the Observer ,brittish:
http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,688071,00.html

By wich i only want to prove that various people/nationality's suspect CIA involvement in the Coup.

And i can give more.
 
And yet it is a never answerable question as it is simply a case of assumption and suspicion not actually proof.

Have you had the opportunity to read over those links I provided above yet btw DoF? Im interested to hear if you still consider a Venezuala - Al Quaeda link to be 'utter bull'.

Kentonio
 
@Kentonio:

I have respect for you due to the fact that you admit yourself that the article's you brought forward may contain some bias ,it show's that you can keep a level of openmindedness on the case.

My oppinion onto the article's is that it's probably largely biased ,just as my article's are for that probably to.But i'll refrain from reviewing the article's one by one ,or their souce's.But more important is the remark i want make to it ,rendering much of the discussion on these source's useless anyway.

The fact is that wether or not Chavez has supported people like Saddam or Al-quaida ,atleast several aquisation's are made in the past that at one time in History the U.S has supported these same people itself.Like the U.S supported saddam in his war against Iran for that matter.

Yet this is not the real subject on this discussion ,the real subject is if The U.S was activly involved ,trough the CIA ,in staging a coup in Venezuela.It is known that Chavez is very much Anti-America ,but that is his foureign policy.Wheter or not you would see this as a justification for America to aid in staging a coup in Venezuela ,that is not the point of this discussion.
Chavez has ,as i said ,been democraticly ellected for the political program he wanted to persue.
The point would be that America could have helped in a coup against a democraticly ellected leader that had a political agenda that was against the interests of the U.S. .

Sorry ,i want to expand on this more and make a better point ,but i have to go now and will only be back withing about 4 hour's.
but ill give reasonable argument's to back up my case in the topic of this thread later ,i assure you.
 
Originally posted by TheDuckOfFlanders
I think you want to make a sarcastic note with this ,though it carries few weith since in about every country slave labor is prevented by law ,including in Venezuela ,and in this comparison the same would be possible in the U.S.A to.
Of course it would be, that wasn't my point.

My point was that if the only standard of democratic law you use is majority support, slaves could (and SHOULD) be legal if the majority supported it.

That is why there are some laws which are outside the democratic realm... majority opinion doesn't matter, the law won't budge.

Originally posted by TheDuckOfFlanders
With that in mind ,i want to come back upon the fact that the U.S in no way condemned the extra-constitutional termination of a democratically-elected president.A fact that raises suspicion on their possible involvement in the putch.A fact that also detere's the U.S justification for a war against Iraq with the goal to get rid of a un-democratic leader.
Why do the people of Venuzuela care what the American government thinks about their internal political issues.

I wouldn't have condemned it either. Since its an internal issue, I'd prefer for the dust to settle before I decide...
Though, honestly, the man is anti-American, why would you expect us to shed any tears about his domestic political squabbles? His claim for authority of the majority is dubious, and his attempts to curtail the future democratic method of the country questions his credentials.

Originally posted by TheDuckOfFlanders
What i can say is that there are many people around the world truly believing that the chance of CIA involvement in the putch is highly likely ,given the U.S history in the South America ,and the fact that Chavez his policy goes straith against American interrests in that region.
People believe what they want to believe.
That doesn't make God real either.

Originally posted by TheDuckOfFlanders
Some "article's" or whatever you may call them on the subject.Mostly from leftists source's though ,so most probably you will take this as Biased.In any case i already agreed there was no 100% certainty or proof backing up these accusation's.

By wich i only want to prove that various people/nationality's suspect CIA involvement in the Coup.
They're all editorials, not articles.

And why should it amaze any of us that people with an anti-Bush agenda should agree across national borders that spreading rumors to his disfavor is in their interest?
 
Chavez has been much less democratic politically than his predecessors, the quote above is likely using 'democracy' in the sense of "social democracy" (redistribution of weath) rather than political freedom.

Remember ,social democracy has nothing to do with Communism.If the majority of a country's poppulation feel's that the Country's wealth should be devided more equally ,then it's a democratic move for a president to follow those wishes ,and it would be un-democratic to not to.

If the majority of a country believes the minority should be put to work as slave laborers it would be democratic too. Not good policy, but democratic.

I think you want to make a sarcastic note with this ,though it carries few weith since in about every country slave labor is prevented by law ,including in Venezuela ,and in this comparison the same would be possible in the U.S.A to.

My point was that if the only standard of democratic law you use is majority support, slaves could (and SHOULD) be legal if the majority supported it.That is why there are some laws which are outside the democratic realm... majority opinion doesn't matter, the law won't budge.

You make the comparison to slave labor ,but the original point that i was trying to make is that persuing more economical equality among the venezuelan poppulation wouldn't nessecarily mean that the rich population would be enslaved.Afcourse slavery is un-lawfull ,and It's not slavery that Chavez is persuing.Chavez is not really taking the rich class their freedom away ,he's only taking step's to get the social and economical difference's smaller in a country that has been under influence so long of an small Oliearchy.Theat can for ex. mean higher taxes for big capital.And although that indeed take's away some potential of a minority class ,it isn't nessecarily un-democratic.I feel that if most of a country's people support a leader that want's more social equality, then it's democraticly justified by that leader to take action's wich not nessecarily violate the law.
Youre comparison to slave labor is just way of the context.

Clearly ,"social democracy" isn't really a part of how America think's Democracy should be.Though there are lot's of European country's that really see "social democracy" as the true form of democracy ,just like the Canadian's for ex. .In America "democracy" tend's more to be regarded as the freedom to get extremely rich against any consideration's like social equality ,preservation of ecoligy ,etc.
this may be due to the American fear of "communism" ,and how they think socialism having many connection's to communism.


I wouldn't have condemned it either. Since its an internal issue, I'd prefer for the dust to settle before I decide...
Though, honestly, the man is anti-American, why would you expect us to shed any tears about his domestic political squabbles? His claim for authority of the majority is dubious, and his attempts to curtail the future democratic method of the country questions his credentials.

He may not be a perfect man ,there is really no better alternative than him ,surely not Carmona.And do you know much leader's in this world that have really a clean sheet? You could state that berlusconi ,the Italian PM is also a threat to the democratic principle's of Italy ,yet would America ,a country that is otherwise so proud to say that it was the first democracy on this world ,and who claim's to want to see democracy in all country's in the world (see cold war) ,not condemm a communist revolution for example in Italy???
America is argumenting that ,in iraq ,it want's to bring Democracy to a country ruled by a dictator ,but it wouldn condemm a Millitary regime ousting a democraticly elected president.

People believe what they want to believe.

Damned i agree ,this is the fourth time i'm saying that there isn't 100% certainty about CIA involved in the Venezuelan coup.But i see these acusation's coming from about every country in the world except from America.One would have to conclude that it's just the whole world that is against this o so really un-imperialistc America.:rolleyes:

One could say,
Where there is smoke ,their is fire

They're all editorials, not articles.

Who cares ,their independant oppinion's.

And why should it amaze any of us that people with an anti-Bush agenda should agree across national borders that spreading rumors to his disfavor is in their interest

You tell me where the New -Zealand interests lay in this matter for one ,or the dutch one's? :rolleyes:

And now i still have to make my remarks to Antonia ,please wait i can't type for hours ,but a reply will eventually folow.
 
Chavez himself even told reporters that the CIA was not involved in any coup attempt.

NO he didn't. :rolleyes:

You show me the proof rhat Chavez said this ,and please not a link from an American resource.
 
Well, what do I need to get to please you people? What source short of the Communist Party of Laos would you trust?
 
A FOX News interviewer asked him and he said "no."

Fox news is from America ,so it's not guaranteed un-biased. :rolleyes:

Well, what do I need to get to please you people? What source short of the Communist Party of Laos would you trust?

I'm not asking for a comunist article.I'm just asking for a article outside the U.S. .:rolleyes:
 
You're being absolutely ridiculous.

The source must be from outside the United States? It WAS.

It was from Hugo Chavez own mouth!
 
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