HUI Game #1 - Pacal II

[vicawoo]

Edit: It's common for people to hide information in spoiler tags.

 

[Abegweit]

It's reasonable to account for it since it would be known the instant he settled, before a single beaker was invested.

Wrong. It was spoiler information which could conceivably have affected the placement of the city. There's been enough of that on this thread. What's more, it only serves as a distraction in illuminating the point I wanted to take - the one which, you may remember, that you just made yourself - the power of the cow tile.

 

[Abegweit]

I was <snip>

Can we PLEASE get the spoiler information off this thread. This is by far the worst one yet.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Wrong. It was spoiler information which could conceivably have affected the placement of the city. There's been enough of that on this thread. What's more, it only serves as a distraction in illuminating the point I wanted to take - the one which, you may remember, that you just made yourself - the power of the cow tile.

Fair enough on the city placement concern. I thought we were working off the assumption of settling where he did for some reason (and merely comparing opening tech path).

We agree on the cow primarily because it is very, very difficult to overcome a 6 yield tile (well, before biology on corn anyway). Chops match it only temporarily (if that), and delay the improvement of further tiles potentially.

But like you, I was definitely surprised at the # giving advice going the other way, and as if it were obvious?!

And to be more to the current issue: I generally don't recommend rushing with holkans. You can probably get away with it on monarch, but any strategic resource unit will be better. If you've already committed to the tech path like the OP and you feel reasonably certain that the target won't shove metal troops up your hindside, they can work OK. Generally though, holkans tank badly as even with FS immunity they lose handily to archers and get MAULED by metal units (especially axes but even swords and other spears are trouble).

 

[Shafi]

@ TMIT - What would you suggest? Dont rush and Rex instead and take her out with Jumbo's and cats or tech AH hope for horses and chariot rush? But since we went BW first, maybe a bit too late for that?

 

[Shafi]

Guys can we please refrain from posting information that is not known at end of my last post???? PLEEEAAAASSSSSEEEE

Vicawoo - Appreciate if you can kindly delete that last post completely.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@ TMIT - What would you suggest? Dont rush and Rex instead and take her out with Jumbo's and cats or tech AH hope for horses and chariot rush? But since we went BW first, maybe a bit too late for that?

From your position, you'd probably want to work a rush. Complete BW, and look for metal. If you don't have it, you might want to hurry to block whatever land you can and work in some holkans. You need more land, so your choices are:

If Horse
-Late(and probably weak if she has metal, but pretty good if not) chariots
-The dreaded horse archer charge although this rush is somewhat advanced

Keep in mind that AH should be soon in your research lineup since you do, in fact, still have that cow tile in the BFC.

If Not Horse
-If you have copper, axes are a significant upgrade from holkans so work those in instead
-If you don't, you can gamble for IW (you ARE financial and yada yada). If you meet more than cathy you can try to trade for it instead possibly. Swords are pretty solid in a somewhat late rush, especially on the lower unitprob leaders (cathy is 25...very average).
-Elephants + cats. Pretty strong and if you don't have metal/horse it's not like you have a lot of other options for early war.
-You can try to play diplo and powertech to something like rifling and then draft, draft, draft rifles and roll her. Similar to horse archers, this move is effective but pretty advanced.

Your flood plain site (I'd move it 1W to settle on elephants for the hammer) is good but it's not tops in production unless you whip. A lot of your land appears questionable in production. If you want to be aggressive here, lean on the whip (so a granary wouldn't be a bad idea soon).

Consider splitting some food in the capitol into other cities temporarily. Other sites are limited, and the cap is very food-heavy. You can tile-swap and whip workers to take advantage of the EXP hammer bonus to them too.

 

[Slvynn]

According test of michmbk

Spoiler :

So
I agree with you that in this case is &#8220;almost&#8221; no difference between strats, but I need to put your attention on more 1 issue:
You have not 2nd worker, and its more turns of city&#8217;s lack of growth. By time You build both settler and worker in your strat, in my strat 2nd worker will be already working 2nd city (in fact he will work now additional 10 turns (till your will be made and travel to 2nd city) , all improvements done in capital, and capital will be same size as in your strat because instead of food-production of settler/worker its just growing fast. So what we have is just less forest, which cleared already for fast cottages right after pots, earlier 2nd city (important border city, need culture injection early, rush base, if rush is in plan, which must grow FAST FAST (Whips/Prod etc) , and worker n2 making more job for this city. City n2 is uber-important, its a blocker and/or rushbase city)

You just can advance more 20 turns and check things.
So I think difference is big. 2nd city built 9(10?) turns earlier (consider travel time), and worked 10 turns more (2nd worker, travel time consideration)) . That&#8217;s a BIG difference for important worked border city.

Earlier block for Cathy wondering settlers to your direction, which are very possible.

Its +1 pop (even more in fact) and just earlier monument whip, with overflow to defender/granary (depends what you prioritize, in case you wat to hold culture (monument whip) till have granaries, giving more tile growth - both options re good, i consider culture monument whip is better though due Cathy's Creative), so earlier culture output, earlier double growth speed for 2nd city

Also more working time (10 turns = 2 farms) for city 2 means Phants (luxury res) will be earlier connected to capital without sacrificing city 2 pop growth, which gives you big benefit for capital with all that food

Summary: I think it proved that my strat was optimal, for details check inside. ;P

 

[vicawoo]

Can we PLEASE get the spoiler information off this thread. This is by far the worst one yet.

What are you talking about? The only information I gave was that Catherine was there, along with the land from the capital to Catherine. Everything else is in a spoiler, a tag which is designed and commonly used to hide information until later.

Rushing an opponent with a resourceless unit is almost completely dependent on how close the enemy is. The minute you see Catherine it's pretty obvious what you should/could do.

 

[Shafi]

What are you talking about? The only information I gave was that Catherine was there, along with the land from the capital to Catherine. Everything else is in a spoiler, a tag which is designed and commonly used to hide information until later.

Rushing an opponent with a resourceless unit is almost completely dependent on how close the enemy is. The minute you see Catherine it's pretty obvious what you should/could do.

Problem is more with the information contained in the spoiler. I had mentioned at the start of the thread that we would like to follow the policy of the ALC threads, of not including such info even in spoilers.

Thanks for taking it off though!

 

[vicawoo]

Worse news. Cathy is creative. You are about to run into 40% culture very soon so I think that the Holkan rush has to be taken off the table. I've never tried one but I sure am not optimistic about success in these circumstances.

Wow. There's a lot of bad advice on this thread.

Let's do some simple math. A creative leader pops 40 in 25 turns instead of 50. Exactly how many holkans would you expect to build and then walk 10 tiles before turn 50? Worker is 15 turns. Farm is 5 turns. You don't even have time to build a barracks. You have 20 turns to chop or make mines or whatnot. At maximum that's 4 forests for a highly unorthodox 2 unpromoted holkan attack force.
Creative changes nothing on attacking his capital.

A holkan rush straight from the capital is often viable. Compare it to a chariot rush, only you get city raider, aren't delayed, and you're weak to axes instead of spears which amazingly both require bronze.

 

[Slvynn]

Holkan rush is must if she have horses and have not copper.
If we take hammers she can produce through time, if she have no copper, but horses, surely some % part of her production will go into chariots for sure (instead of archers), which make her weaker aginst our holkans. If she have not horse it will be toughter, than if she have.

 

[Shafi]

So people i need your help to make the decision,

1) Holkan Rush
2) Rex Peacefully and take her out with Phants + Cats
3) Research AH and look for horses after which Chariot or HA rush

Which option do we go for? I am inclined towards Holkan rush cos i think we can make it before cathy hooks up any copper but i could be wrong.

 

[Slvynn]

So people i need your help to make the decision,

1) Holkan Rush
2) Rex Peacefully and take her out with Phants + Cats
3) Research AH and look for horses after which Chariot or HA rush

Which option do we go for? I am inclined towards Holkan rush cos i think we can make it before cathy hooks up any bronze but i could be wrong.

option 3 is most powerfull one. If we can get HA we are "riding white horse" hehe (HBR needed for jumbos)
option 1 is good in case she have not copper close but have horse. Most optimal case for this option.
option 2 is otherwise, that mean if she have copper, and we have not horses around.

 

[TheLazyHase]

I would begin with AH, since it will not be a lost tech without horses, and chariot rush may very well be a more viable option than holkan rush.

Rushing if I get chariot... I would most certainly try. I'd better die quickly than die slowly because I'm cornered.

 

[Abegweit]

What are you talking about? The only information I gave was that Catherine was there, along with the land from the capital to Catherine. Everything else is in a spoiler, a tag which is designed and commonly used to hide information until later.

Playing forward from the position is a spoiler. Keep the spoilers off the thread. This is not complicated. If you want to prove how amazingly good you are at baby tactics, do it some place else.

Try hiding your spoilers in tags on a GOTM thread if you think that it's just hunky-dory. Oh. Then do that twice.

 

[Slvynn]

I should disagree with With TheLazyHaze about Chariots:
At given situation early holkan rush is better than postponed chariot rush.
Why? Because: 1. it will take time to settle horse and connect it.
2. Chariots lose to holkan because holkan can have CR promotion.
3. Being exp and having so much food that&#8217;s not so big issue to dispatch more worker to make fast road to Moscow.
4. If Cathy have copper that is bad for chariots too. (Spears) If Cathy have horses that&#8217;s no change for chariots but good for holkans. Statistically EARLY Holkans win.
5. Chariots have even more poor tank and will be worse crossing hills. AIs sometimes tend to counterattack hurt units.

Summary:
AH is must, but rush should be done with HA. Otherwise or peace REX till jumbo, or early holkan rush, depends of our scout&#8217;s reports.

 

[TheLazyHase]

1. it will take time to settle horse and connect it.
2. Chariots lose to holkan because holkan can have CR promotion.
3. Being exp and having so much food that’s not so big issue to dispatch more worker to make fast road to Moscow.
4. If Cathy have copper that is bad for chariots too. (Spears) If Cathy have horses that’s no change for chariots but good for holkans. Statistically EARLY Holkans win.
5. Chariots have even more poor tank and will be worse crossing hills. AIs sometimes tend to counterattack hurt units.

But chariot does have advantages :
* quicker, so the capital will most probably have one less archer
* AI tend to make axes, not spear. Chariot eat axe, Holkan fear axe and will not like spear.
* much, much better for copper pillaging.

So, chariot are better than Holkan in my opinion. Still, early holkan may be better than late chariot, and in any case both can be pretty risky.

 

[Soirana]

1) Holkan Rush

Singleton axe can make this very bad. Luckily since Cathy already has BW you can keep talking [now and further on] with her until she says that her best units is. In case of axe don't do that.

Holkan rush is doable overall, partially due to thei inner immunity to first strikes which helps against archers a bit. Rax is must in such case CRI holkans make cut but you need arround 3 per fortified archer to avoid problems.

You still need to attack with brains, for example at moment she sends settler with some archers out, attacking cap first and using fastest approach available.

Another problem is hse knows some other AI, as she spills espionage on you and AI x.
This is a problem since you do not know who that is. If than is Mansa than fine, but believe me you do not want to rush her just to found you are tet-a-tet on continent with someone like Tokugawa...

2) Rex Peacefully and take her out with Phants + Cats

You do not have land to rex honestly. 5cities before construction is not REX, but that term is used same way as CE, SE... [stupidly that is].
IMO, your second warrior [nearly built], should explore west and tundra... that wheat spot might be not so bad if there is deer or crabs in same cross.

3) Research AH and look for horses after which Chariot or HA rush

IMo, holkans are better than chariots if she does not have copper.

Overall you have nice land for a three-four city empire, being financial with a bit juggling between cottages and mines you can prepare nice classical war - cats+something to kill her.

In days i played monarch i usually played as three/four city empire until maces and than killed someone cats+maces while teching to trebs, trebs+maces for another and so on... Given difficulty level i see no reason to rush Catty, unless you desperately want that marble for shiny wonders...

About chopping - i am lazy to search but few times i've read heavy chopping vs improvements+ grow equalizes arround turn 40-50 expansion wise. Except for fact that improvements first has ton of forest left to chop wonders or army....

Summarizing - block some land [preferably settling with food in first ring to avoid problems], found othe rneighbours and than probably start working towards construction...

 

[kossin]

I love Chariot rushes:

1. Holkans are slow in enemy territory. You can usually expect 2 more defenders from a slow-moving stack in an early rush.
2. Chariots can get flanking.
3. Chariots cost less than axes/spears.
4. Excellent worker stealers.
5. AIs rarely build early spears and never many. Shaka/Pacal are the exception because of their UU.

All in all, we need a bit more info before deciding for a early rush (be it holkan, axe or chariot), HA rush, elepult war or even a peaceful game. Since Cathy likes to rex, her cities are likely to be not so heavily defended so it does seem to favor some kind of early war in any case.