Humanity is causing Global Warming, for sure.

Meanwhile, even Germany, the paragon of eco-friendliness according to some, has begun building coal-fired power stations again. (I believe. Iirc.)
We actually never did stop building them. But the bunch coming online the next few years will probably the last for the foreseeable future.
Lots of older ones keep getting phased out, and quite a few projects that were not yet beyond the economic point of no return were abandoned.

Those projects getting finished about now were kicked off just before the ~2008 recession, when our energy giants thought they had money to burn somewhere and renewables still looked like it would take decades before they would matter.
And such projects take close to a decade here.

It is correct that we have an increase in electricity production from coal the last two (?) years, but this is mostly due to an increased capacity factor of existing plants, rather that any kind of "coal renaissance".
Basically hard coal took over most of the share of gas in electricity generation, and lignite plants kept running all out.
 
But it’s certainly likely that the same natural cycles played a large role in both the rapid warming from 1970-1998 and the relative stability since then.
Oldie but goldie:

Spoiler :
FR11_All.gif


Quite a lot of that "pause" and "accelerated warming to 1998" simply comes down to that one extreme El-Nino. And if you look at a longer timescale, as befitting a climatological perspective, there isn't much of a "pause", but rather some excursions above and below a long-term trend of ~ 0.15 ... 0.2 °C per decade.

Spoiler :
hadcrut4.jpg


(http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2012/11/short-term-trends-another-proxy-fight/)
 
I'm very happy with the steps China has finally begun to take to control their emissions for example.

Maybe they noticed that Shanghai is built on a river delta. Good luck building levees around that.

Quite a lot of that "pause" and "accelerated warming to 1998" simply comes down to that one extreme El-Nino.

Picking start or end points of a graph on top of unusually large events, is just a dirty trick, plain and simple. If the unusual event happened in 2000, you could rationalize that hey, they probably picked 2000 because it's a nice round number.

I think the first thing we should do now about global warming is seriously experimenting with geoengineering. That still leaves ocean acidification as a problem, but sea-level rise is far worse for humanity than acidification - so, global dimming to fight global warming, still a win, if it works.
 
I think the first thing we should do now about global warming is seriously experimenting with geoengineering. That still leaves ocean acidification as a problem, but sea-level rise is far worse for humanity than acidification - so, global dimming to fight global warming, still a win, if it works.
I think you will find plenty of other climate scientist that will offer the opinion that sulphate geoengeneering might have plenty of side effects that might be about as bad as an increased global temperature.

The first thing that comes to mind is that aerosol dimming operates pretty much inverse to greenhouse gas heating, so they will not simply cancel each other out.

Aerosol dimming will be most effective in the tropics and subtropics, and in the middle of the day.
Greenhouse gas heating is most effective at night, and at high latitudes.
Managing to find a balance there without producing even more erratic "climate change", and pissing off half of the world in the process sounds a tad optimistic, I think.
Especially if your priority is stopping sea level rise, you would need most likely a global mean temperature below "pre-industrial". And local side effects might become quite nasty:
Year Without a Summer
 
So um, if I were to show a graph of increasing CO2 and increasing temperature, and then chant the mantra "correlation is not causation" would you guys be annoyed? ;)
 
There is a very rotten substrate to having media/politicians/etc try to back a scientific claim as if they actually are lecturing the other people in their audience who are (supposedly) even dumber than them. Cause no, chances are their audience is by and large of the same very low level they share.

Science is not a charade or village fair to be trumpeted in news-bites or popular culture. If anyone is "swayed" then they are what those people in "the emperor's new clothes" were; merely victims of their own fear of being ridiculed for not being able to grasp something, when they aren't grasping what is going on anyway and parrot a view dubbed as the correct one for very suspect reasons.

What is next? Tv personalities or comedians or politicians making fun of arguments against particulars of the general law of Relativity? :rolleyes:
 
So um, if I were to show a graph of increasing CO2 and increasing temperature, and then chant the mantra "correlation is not causation" would you guys be annoyed? ;)

That's true as far as it goes. Simply showing a correlation is not enough on its own to establish causation. But of course if you're careful and persistent you will find that there are causes to events, and those factors DO correlate as well as cause the event in question. So just because there's a correlation it doesn't mean that factor is ruled out as a cause, which is what it seems like you're suggesting.

It's been known since the mid 19th century that increasing the amount of CO2 in a system will result in a higher temperature all else being equal. And in the case of our atmosphere the models don't match observed historical trends if we leave out the manmade CO2. And we know it's manmade CO2 because fossil carbon has a different isotopic signature than contemporary biological carbon.
 
FWIW I'm not even really suggesting that. I was more curious what the reaction would be to the statement than anything. I abandoned my opposition to the idea of manmade AGW awhile back.

My last holdout view was whether CO2 levels were increasing warming or whether natural cycles of warming were naturally allowing higher CO2 levels to exist in the atmosphere. Quite frankly, I never a really clear answer as to why it was the 1st and not the 2nd, but I eventually bowed to the critical mass of people insisting it was indeed the case.

EDIT: Ooh! Subscribing for future proof that I'm not always closed minded!
 
Correlation is a thing of the past btw. That is to say, it is no more. When it did exist it was CO2 which followed temps by several hundred years, not the other way around.
 
This is the main reason I am against the policies that fight climate change.
http://www.climatedepot.com/2014/06/12/fired-for-diverging-on-climate-progressive-professors-fellowship-terminated-after-wsj-oped-calling-global-warming-unproved-science/
“But it is as an Africanist, rather than a statistician, that I object most strongly to ‘climate justice.’ Where is the justice for Africans when universities divest from energy companies and thus weaken their ability to explore for resources in Africa? Where is the justice when the U.S. discourages World Bank funding for electricity-generation projects in Africa that involve fossil fuels, and when the European Union places a ‘global warming’ tax on cargo flights importing perishable African goods?”

With 15% of the world’s people, Africa produces less than 5% of carbon-dioxide emissions. With 4% of global population, America produces 25% of these emissions. In other words, each American accounts for 20 times the emissions of each African. We are not rationing our electricity. Why should Africa, which needs electricity for the sort of income-producing enterprises and infrastructure that help improve life expectancy? The average in Africa is 59 years–in America it’s 79. Increased access to electricity was crucial in China’s growth, which raised life expectancy to 75 today from 59 in 1968.
Every single action taken to combat climate change has an adverse affect on the poorest of people. Currently the West is actively making sure the poorest people stay poor by forcing them to try and build electricity they can't afford.
 
This is the main reason I am against the policies that fight climate change.

Every single action taken to combat climate change has an adverse affect on the poorest of people. Currently the West is actively making sure the poorest people stay poor by forcing them to try and build electricity they can't afford.

Oh spare me the bullcrap and cut the crocodile tears

In most of Africa most electricity is generated by hydro. For good reasons; Africa has a lot of hydro potential. And it's cheap. Much cheaper than fossil fuels. It's much the same story in South America; 85% of Brazil's electricity is renewable.

You know what else is great about hydro? Doesn't need fuel. Africans and African politics don't need to be held captive to the whims of Big Oil or Big Gas or Big Coal like us Australians are.

Fortunately African leaders aren't so short-sighted. Ethiopia's going to be carbon-neutral by 2025.
 
I think the whole silly thing will come to an end with the current El Nino. Temps have dropped slightly in the last decade and a half and when the only thing keeping them up somewhat is done then the drop really starts getting going in a serious manner. Keep in mind this "pause" has occurred while CO2 has climbed off the graph. So much for correlation...
 
Oh spare me the bullcrap and cut the crocodile tears

In most of Africa most electricity is generated by hydro. For good reasons; Africa has a lot of hydro potential. And it's cheap. Much cheaper than fossil fuels. It's much the same story in South America; 85% of Brazil's electricity is renewable.

You know what else is great about hydro? Doesn't need fuel. Africans and African politics don't need to be held captive to the whims of Big Oil or Big Gas or Big Coal like us Australians are.

Fortunately African leaders aren't so short-sighted. Ethiopia's going to be carbon-neutral by 2025.

Also solar has the potential for local low-scale power generation (or rather power capture) without the installation of expensive infrastructure.

In much the same way that mobile telephony took off in Africa.
 
Temps have dropped slightly in the last decade and a half
No. The Global temperature anomaly has been increasing during this period - a period most of which has been characterised by predominantly cool La'Nina conditions in ENSO, plus, as we now know, increased uptake of excess heat energy in the oceans.

There will not be a sudden cooling and if you think there will be then you really have to understand that you are getting all of your information from the wrong mouthpieces.
 
FWIW empirically that weather changed its pattern massively in the last 10-15 years is something noted here as well, given back when i was in school we had clear 4 seasons while for the last decade we pretty much have Summer--->Winter--->Summer.

(and Winter is coming).
 
No. The Global temperature anomaly has been increasing during this period - a period most of which has been characterised by predominantly cool La'Nina conditions in ENSO, plus, as we now know, increased uptake of excess heat energy in the oceans.

There will not be a sudden cooling and if you think there will be then you really have to understand that you are getting all of your information from the wrong mouthpieces.

Eh, it won't be long now. The oceans taking up heat, which they never caused a "pause" before, is last ditch reaching. Still, it must be very difficult to admit an error of this size, apologize for the waste of b i l l i o n s and then head for the unemployment lines with all your coworkers.


None of this was predicted btw. The dire predictions which turned out to all be completely false are being recorded for posterity by the folks who you say I am " getting all of your information from the wrong mouthpieces." They do this for posterity I believe. "50 million climate refugees" Ice here and there melted by 2013 or some such, it goes on and on. The polar bears, how absurd was that?


Anyway there are folks out there who would not be convinced by glaciers rolling over their homes. They would point at the encroaching frosty doom and pronounce the walls of ice to be a sure sign of global warming. :D

So what chance have I to convince?
 
Eh, it won't be long now. The oceans taking up heat, which they never caused a "pause" before, is last ditch reaching.
No, it's a empirically verified fact.

None of this was predicted btw. The dire predictions which turned out to all be completely false are being recorded for posterity by the folks who you say I am " getting all of your information from the wrong mouthpieces." They do this for posterity I believe. "50 million climate refugees" Ice here and there melted by 2013 or some such, it goes on and on. The polar bears, how absurd was that?
Well, let's take as an example the claim that it was thought that the Arctic sea Ice would be gone by 2013. That's a prediction that was never actually made. Predictions are that there may be no Arctic sea ice (during the summer months only) by about 2040 at the earliest iirc.

Polar bear numbers increasing? Not according to people who study polar bears.

Answered by Dr. Steven C. Amstrup, chief scientist with Polar Bears International and USGS polar bear project leader for 30 years.

Q: Why all the fuss about polar bears? Aren't their populations increasing: in fact, booming?

A: One of the most frequent myths we hear about polar bears is that their numbers are increasing and have, in fact, more than doubled over the past thirty years. Tales about how many polar bears there used to be (with claims as low as 5,000 in the 1960s) are undocumented, but cited over and over again. Yet no one I know can come up with a legitimate source for these numbers.*

So yes, you are reliant upon some fairly massive fibs.
 
This is the main reason I am against the policies that fight climate change.

Isn't the main reason you're against it that you believe that God will care for us no matter what and that the planet is not in any sort of danger? That's the impression I always got. I don't ever remember you bringing up Africa until now.
 
No, it's a empirically verified fact.

Well, let's take as an example the claim that it was thought that the Arctic sea Ice would be gone by 2013. That's a prediction that was never actually made. Predictions are that there may be no Arctic sea ice (during the summer months only) by about 2040 at the earliest iirc.

Polar bear numbers increasing? Not according to people who study polar bears.



So yes, you are reliant upon some fairly massive fibs.

No its not
Yes it was
Whether polar bear numbers are increasing or decreasing has nothing to do with human caused CO2

Anyway...:dunno:

This will be a lot easier in a few years, maybe very few.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c4XPVPJwBY&list=PLHSoxioQtwZcqdt3LK6d66tMreI4gqIC-
 
Oldie but goldie:

Spoiler :
FR11_All.gif


Quite a lot of that "pause" and "accelerated warming to 1998" simply comes down to that one extreme El-Nino. And if you look at a longer timescale, as befitting a climatological perspective, there isn't much of a "pause", but rather some excursions above and below a long-term trend of ~ 0.15 ... 0.2 °C per decade.

Spoiler :
hadcrut4.jpg


(http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2012/11/short-term-trends-another-proxy-fight/)

Cool! I knew the reason 1998 is always chosen as the start year for the warming "pause" is that its extreme El Niño caused a large temperature spike, but I was under the impression that at least some of the leveling off wasn't attributable to just ENSO, volcanic aerosols, and the solar cycle alone. I had read that deep ocean heat uptake (700-2000 m) was likely where the remaining extra heat had gone based on recent measurements that finally do now cover enough of the deep ocean to know about its warming trend. The IPCC listed that as "likely" in the ocean section of AR5; I suppose I could poke around more on Google Scholar to see how much is known in detail.

CavLancer said:
I think the whole silly thing will come to an end with the current El Nino. Temps have dropped slightly in the last decade and a half and when the only thing keeping them up somewhat is done then the drop really starts getting going in a serious manner. Keep in mind this "pause" has occurred while CO2 has climbed off the graph. So much for correlation...
First of all, temperatures haven't dropped, they've just risen more slowly than they did in the 1970-1998 period. The majority of that appears to be due to ENSO and the current weak solar cycle.

You seem to be under the impression that we're in imminent risk of falling into another glacial period, were it not for our CO2 emissions. That is something that was considered likely by some scientists in the 1970s and 1980s as paleoclimatology was taking off and the causes and frequencies of the last glacial periods were determined. We now know that to be unlikely for at least the next 50,000 years due mostly to the fact that the eccentricity cycle is in its lowest (and still decreasing) phase. Ice ages appear to start when the subarctic regions do not become warm enough in summer to melt the previous winter's snow and an ice sheet develops in the high latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere.

In fact, summer solar insolation near the Arctic Circle is near a local minimum and will increase again for several thousand years, fall back to slightly above its current value, and then rise again. Here's a graph of the fluctuations of summer insolation at 65 N due to the combined effect of all the Milankovitch cycles (red line).

InsolationSummerSolstice65N.png


The graph is from Wikipedia, which took it from this Science paper. Minima correspond well to the initiation of glacial cycles. Interglacials tend to start shortly after maxima, which cause enough solar energy to hit high latitudes that rapid melting of ice sheets occurs. The current interglacial appears to have begun due to the spike you can see at 10-20 thousand years ago. We're currently in a very shallow minimum insufficient to cause glacial conditions outside Greenland and Antarctica, and the next minimum below the present value does not occur until ~55,000 years from present.

In short, this would "normally" be an unusually long interglacial anyway, with glacial conditions not returning for at least the next several tens of thousands of years. The entire article on Milankovitch cycles is worth a read.
 
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