HUMANKIND a Civ VI killer?

[The Civs 6]

I mean I just got done playing a bit of Endless Legends. I can't say the gameplay is MUCH better, maybe marginally so. Just one example here, in Endless Legends they've pretty much abandoned the conceit that you all are 6 equal, individual players sitting down. They reworked diplomacy so you need certain yields to do diplomatic actions. There are quite a few possible diplomatic states, such as a Cold War where you are free to fight enemy soldiers who are outside of their own borders. Civ is still stuck in the silly pretense that it's just a single-player multi-player game. As a result, unlike what I just described, there is simply no game design into how diplomacy works whatsoever. In general, Civ seems stuck in certain tropes that have long outlived their utility (linear tech tree being another one. Of course they decide to add a second linear tech tree...)

But really what is a deal breaker for me (against Civ) is that the flavor and theme in Legends are SO MUCH better - and playing that game made me realize how terrible 6 was in this aspect. A brief analysis:

• Why on Earth did the Civ designers choose this a cartoony aesthetic and a game that self-consciously made itself a game-board (i.e. with "policy cards")? That's what bothers me off more than anything about 6. IE Empire plans are WAY less interestingly strategically, but between the musical cues and simply the concept, they feel way better than shuffling around some cards. As if I was playing freaking Monopoly.
• Thoughtless versus thoughtful choices. Cities expand out geographically as they add population - so Endless Legend's districts/suburbs make sense. Civilizations don't make huge 100km x 100km sciency or cultural districts. Civ's district system just makes no. freaking. sense.
• I love looking at the empire selection screens for Legends, while I hate every single leader model in 6 (which all look like something from Wallace and Gromit). IE the Cultist leader model looks frightening. Supposed world conqueror Genghis Khan looks like a complete joke, like he is the kind of guy who would let you cut him in line at the supermarket.

The sad thing is that it's not a case where the Civ designers had to sacrifice resources in this area to put in another. I feel like their heavy investment into the aesthetic was just a complete failure. And if that's the audience (presumably young children) they think they need to appeal to, count me out. The NFP things have been nice bells and whistles, but they are just that. Plus, even looking at them charitably, they just do things worse than other video games (IE Legends just dunks on Civ 6 when it comes to the hero system and having a dynamic environment).

In my last post I was conciliatory about Civ. But I just played another 4x game that just does it so much better, and was probably developed with a significantly smaller budget. Yeah, they don't have all the baggage of Civ. But the game takes itself seriously. Earlier Civ games were the same way - they had a reverence for their own subject material, whether the little tech loading screens of 1 to the 100% serious Leonard Nimoy quotes of 4.

Civ 6 is now "ha ha ha, one... more... turn..., right?" Half the quotes are literally joke quotes. Beyond the leaders looking like garbage, they have their little message at the start "partake in my stereotypical products." Bonus points if the game makes sure to make them sound - oh so humorously - unappetizing.

 

[Zaarin]

I feel like their heavy investment into the aesthetic was just a complete failure. And if that's the audience (presumably young children) they think they need to appeal to, count me out.

I was on board with your first paragraph, but the amount of "colors other than mud hurt my man-pride" complaints that Civ6 has evoked baffles me. The writing and quote selection for Civ6 has been poor, you'll get no arguments from me, but there's nothing puerile about its aesthetic choices. I'm not an expert on children, but I would expect that even on low difficulties Civ6 would be too complex for most young children without adult guidance.

On the note of jokes, as a big fan of the entire Endless franchise, one thing it does very well is not take itself too seriously. Its tongue is planted firmly in its cheek throughout. So it's not like Amplitude is somber and grandiose in its tone. If you want Grimdark: The 4X Game, I'm sure someone will try capitalizing on the Game of Thrones frenzy sooner or later.

 

[The Civs 6]

I was on board with your first paragraph, but the amount of "colors other than mud hurt my man-pride" complaints that Civ6 has evoked baffles me. The writing and quote selection for Civ6 has been poor, you'll get no arguments from me, but there's nothing puerile about its aesthetic choices. I'm not an expert on children, but I would expect that even on low difficulties Civ6 would be too complex for most young children without adult guidance.

On the note of jokes, as a big fan of the entire Endless franchise, one thing it does very well is not take itself too seriously. Its tongue is planted firmly in its cheek throughout. So it's not like Amplitude is somber and grandiose in its tone. If you want Grimdark: The 4X Game, I'm sure someone will try capitalizing on the Game of Thrones frenzy sooner or later.

First of all I didn't mention anything like the "mud" comment. That has nothing to do with my post. Endless does it well and pulls it off, just like Civ games of the past did. And I love the bright colors - and almost baroque variety in the environment - in Endless Legends. Please consider addressing what my post actually said, thank you.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I was on board with your first paragraph, but the amount of "colors other than mud hurt my man-pride" complaints that Civ6 has evoked baffles me. The writing and quote selection for Civ6 has been poor, you'll get no arguments from me, but there's nothing puerile about its aesthetic choices. I'm not an expert on children, but I would expect that even on low difficulties Civ6 would be too complex for most young children without adult guidance.

I don't mind the quotes when they're read by Sean Bean.
That being said low difficulties for Civ 6 are too complex for most adults.

If you want Grimdark: The 4X Game, I'm sure someone will try capitalizing on the Game of Thrones frenzy sooner or later.

I know you are joking but I'd love a Game of Thrones 4X game and not just a computer or video game version of the board game.

 

[Kwami]

First of all I didn't mention anything like the "mud" comment. That has nothing to do with my post. Endless does it well and pulls it off, just like Civ games of the past did. And I love the bright colors - and almost baroque variety in the environment - in Endless Legends. Please consider addressing what my post actually said, thank you.

About half of your post was complaining that you don't like the aesthetic design of Civ VI and that the game doesn't take itself seriously enough. So, I think @Zaarin's response was addressing your post just fine. Frankly, I think we've all seen that complaint enough times for one lifetime.

 

[The Civs 6]

About half of your post was complaining that you don't like the aesthetic design of Civ VI and that the game doesn't take itself seriously enough. So, I think @Zaarin's response was addressing your post just fine. Frankly, I think we've all seen that complaint enough times for one lifetime.

There is no logical relationship between the color palette/minimalism versus lots of details and the cartoonish and, as he said, puerile design decisions. Endless Legends clearly shows that it is possible to have a rich looking game that is not full of stupid looking civ leaders and fourth-wall breaking self-awareness.

And I don't spend every waking moment of my time reading this forum so I have to confess ignorance about what are the longstanding arguments people have about this game. My views are my own, and if others have made the same criticism, that kind of shows the validity of my argument.

 

[Zaarin]

First of all I didn't mention anything like the "mud" comment. That has nothing to do with my post. Endless does it well and pulls it off, just like Civ games of the past did. And I love the bright colors - and almost baroque variety in the environment - in Endless Legends. Please consider addressing what my post actually said, thank you.

Three fourths of your post was complaining about Civ6's art style. Considering I mentioned more than one post suggests that yours was not the only one I was addressing, just the latest of its particular type.

Endless Legends clearly shows that it is possible to have a rich looking game that is not full of stupid looking civ leaders and fourth-wall breaking self-awareness.

I'm starting to wonder if you've played the Endless games (or at least read any of the flavor text), because they are filled to the brim with fourth-wall-breaking aspersions and tongue-in-cheek asides. They don't take themselves nearly as seriously as Civ does, even Civ6. (That's not a criticism. I think Endless Space 2 is the best 4X game on the market right now. But it's not doing your argument any favors.)

My views are my own, and if others have made the same criticism, that kind of shows the validity of my argument.

Just because an opinion is popular doesn't make it "more correct," but in this case it's not so much popular as the people voicing it are loud. Calling Civ6's art style "cartoonish" or "childish" is indeed an opinion that has been voiced frequently, but not a very tenable one.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Speaking of quotes - I know a lot of people dislike VI's quotes - then here are the Humankind culture quotes.

Ancient:
Nubians: "Anything under the sun can be exchanged for enough gold."
Olmecs: "All that was, and is, and will be, is written in the stars."
Phoenicians: "Unlike the lands, the seas give the merchant no obstructions."
Zhou: "Judge not an empire by the strength of its armies."
Assyrians: "The tallest blade is the first to be cut by the scythe."
Hittites: "Our charioteers must train for many moons before entering the battle."
Babylonians: "Where the mind can see, the physical body can follow."
Egyptians: "The seed cannot sprout upwards without also sending down roots."
Harappans: "In one drop of water are found all the secrets of life."
Mycenaeans: "Illustrious warriors have the whole earth for their tomb."

Classical:
Mayans: "Great feats of architecture honor the majesty of the cosmos."
Persians: "Go as far as eye can see and when you get there you'll see further."
Romans: "Throw me to the wolves and I will return leading the pack."
Aksumites: "The one who controls the market controls the world."
Greeks: "Let us clash words in the amphitheatron and swords on the battlefield."
Carthaginians: "Over seas and lands, our trade routes will criss-cross the world."
Celts: "Let the ballads to gods and heroes echo deep in our forests."
Goths: "The fallen will not be forgotten as we fight for greatness."
Huns: "All will think the world splits asunder upon hearing our steeds."
Mauryans: "Only a fool dismisses other cultures without consideration."

Medieval:
Norsemen: "The enemy's coastlines are long, and we are many."
Aztec: "May we witness the sun rise in a thousand lands."
Byzantines: "Let markets enrich us, and antiquities enlighten us."
Franks: "To do what is right, we must know what is right."
Ghanaians: "Our markets hold all the wonders of the senses."
Teutons: "Let justice be done, though the world perish."
Khmer: "A mountain never has two tigers."
English: "The plow is mightier than the sword."
Mongols: "Wind through the hair, blood on the blade. That is enough."
Umayyads: "In the mosques we pray, in the libraries we record."

Early Modern:
Edo Japanese: "Patience means restraining one's inclinations."
Haudenosaunee: "Let the roots of peace spread to all points of the compass."

Industrial:
Germans: "Waging war requires courage, purpose, and an iron determination."
Italians: "Art is fine food, great craftsmanship, and unrestrained passion."
British: "We are not interested in the possibility of defeat."
French: "Judge of a person by their questions rather than their answers."
Austro-Hungarians: "The language of music has no borders."
Mexicans: "They tried to bury us. They didn't know we were seeds."
Siamese: "Anything can be built with enough imagination."


Some of them are good, with clear attributions and themed well. Some of them are weird - for instance, the Greek one sounds really generalist; so as the A-H and Siam one, I cannot see anything Austrian or Siamese in their quotes. The Khmer one is actually a Chinese idiom, 一山不容二虎, instead of a Khmer idiom (although we may need to ask @Andrew Johnson [FXS] about if this idiom has a Khmer version/origin); and the affinity of Khmer is Builder, I really failed to see how an idiom about power struggle fit into the theme of the Builder.

In terms of these cultural quotes, which is part of the "flavor texts" discussed above, I would say Humankind is not entirely superior than Civ's leader intros, cf. NFP's generalist civ leader intros.

 

[The Civs 6]

Three fourths of your post was complaining about Civ6's art style. Considering I mentioned more than one post suggests that yours was not the only one I was addressing, just the latest of its particular type.

If you want to reduce any complaint about Civ's aesthetic to the strawman that you have concocted, be my guest. That doesn't make for very interesting discussion. I get that you feel like you have argued the same point a million times, but I don't think that justifies basically calling my preference a desire for grimdark (which is really just puerility but in a different direction).

I'm starting to wonder if you've played the Endless games (or at least read any of the flavor text), because they are filled to the brim with fourth-wall-breaking aspersions and tongue-in-cheek asides. They don't take themselves nearly as seriously as Civ does, even Civ6. (That's not a criticism. I think Endless Space 2 is the best 4X game on the market right now. But it's not doing your argument any favors.)

I haven't played the space games because I can't stand space 4x games. My only frame of reference is endless legends. And yes they have plenty of stuff like that, like "Indiana Bones" being an upgrade option that improves treasure hunting. But you are sort of just making assertions about the games respective degree to which they take themselves seriously or not. I provided tangible examples. I challenge you to do the same - and if the best you can come up with are other examples of flavor text, I'm not sure how strong you conclusion really is.

Just because an opinion is popular doesn't make it "more correct," but in this case it's not so much popular as the people voicing it are loud. Calling Civ6's art style "cartoonish" or "childish" is indeed an opinion that has been voiced frequently, but not a very tenable one.

I'm just calling it like I see it, having played every single Civ game since the DOS days. I can 100%, bet the company, say that 6 is the most childish and, as you said, "puerile" installment in the Civ series. I actually don't think this is the map either - my favorite thing about 6 compared to earlier games is, in fact, how the map looks and is generated. I just don't like the way any other part of the game looks or presents itself.

Speaking of quotes - I know a lot of people dislike VI's quotes - then here are the Humankind culture quotes.

Ancient:
Nubians: "Anything under the sun can be exchanged for enough gold."
Olmecs: "All that was, and is, and will be, is written in the stars."
Phoenicians: "Unlike the lands, the seas give the merchant no obstructions."
Zhou: "Judge not an empire by the strength of its armies."
Assyrians: "The tallest blade is the first to be cut by the scythe."
Hittites: "Our charioteers must train for many moons before entering the battle."
Babylonians: "Where the mind can see, the physical body can follow."
Egyptians: "The seed cannot sprout upwards without also sending down roots."
Harappans: "In one drop of water are found all the secrets of life."
Mycenaeans: "Illustrious warriors have the whole earth for their tomb."

Classical:
Mayans: "Great feats of architecture honor the majesty of the cosmos."
Persians: "Go as far as eye can see and when you get there you'll see further."
Romans: "Throw me to the wolves and I will return leading the pack."
Aksumites: "The one who controls the market controls the world."
Greeks: "Let us clash words in the amphitheatron and swords on the battlefield."
Carthaginians: "Over seas and lands, our trade routes will criss-cross the world."
Celts: "Let the ballads to gods and heroes echo deep in our forests."
Goths: "The fallen will not be forgotten as we fight for greatness."
Huns: "All will think the world splits asunder upon hearing our steeds."
Mauryans: "Only a fool dismisses other cultures without consideration."

Medieval:
Norsemen: "The enemy's coastlines are long, and we are many."
Aztec: "May we witness the sun rise in a thousand lands."
Byzantines: "Let markets enrich us, and antiquities enlighten us."
Franks: "To do what is right, we must know what is right."
Ghanaians: "Our markets hold all the wonders of the senses."
Teutons: "Let justice be done, though the world perish."
Khmer: "A mountain never has two tigers."
English: "The plow is mightier than the sword."
Mongols: "Wind through the hair, blood on the blade. That is enough."
Umayyads: "In the mosques we pray, in the libraries we record."

Early Modern:
Edo Japanese: "Patience means restraining one's inclinations."
Haudenosaunee: "Let the roots of peace spread to all points of the compass."

Industrial:
Germans: "Waging war requires courage, purpose, and an iron determination."
Italians: "Art is fine food, great craftsmanship, and unrestrained passion."
British: "We are not interested in the possibility of defeat."
French: "Judge of a person by their questions rather than their answers."
Austro-Hungarians: "The language of music has no borders."
Mexicans: "They tried to bury us. They didn't know we were seeds."
Siamese: "Anything can be built with enough imagination."


Some of them are good, with clear attributions and themed well. Some of them are weird - for instance, the Greek one sounds really generalist; so as the A-H and Siam one, I cannot see anything Austrian or Siamese in their quotes. The Khmer one is actually a Chinese idiom, 一山不容二虎, instead of a Khmer idiom (although we may need to ask @Andrew Johnson [FXS] about if this idiom has a Khmer version/origin); and the affinity of Khmer is Builder, I really failed to see how an idiom about power struggle fit into the theme of the Builder.

In terms of these cultural quotes, which is part of the "flavor texts" discussed above, I would say Humankind is not entirely superior than Civ's leader intros, cf. NFP's generalist civ leader intros.

They are trite, I don't disagree with that, but I prefer trite to "haha we are Canadians and we drink maple syrup and wear toques, and our armed forces are entirely mounties."

 

[Zaarin]

If you want to reduce any complaint about Civ's aesthetic to the strawman that you have concocted, be my guest.

Look, if you make a statement like "I hate Picasso because I hate Impressionism," the fact that Picasso was not an Impressionist does not nullify your right to dislike Picasso--but it still doesn't make Picasso an Impressionist. You can personally dislike Civ6's art direction without writing it off as "childish."

My only frame of reference is endless legends. And yes they have plenty of stuff like that, like "Indiana Bones" being an upgrade option that improves treasure hunting. But you are sort of just making assertions about the games respective degree to which they take themselves seriously or not. I provided tangible examples. I challenge you to do the same - and if the best you can come up with are other examples of flavor text, I'm not sure how strong you conclusion really is.

The entire franchise is saturated with a tongue-in-cheek attitude, and yes the flavor text is relevant here because as a fictional setting the flavor text is the only context the game has. Endless is very self-aware and takes every opportunity to wink at the player. It's never totally serious. In tone it has a great deal in common with the likes of Monkey Island.

I can 100%, bet the company, say that 6 is the most childish and, as you said, "puerile" installment in the Civ series.

I can equally assure you they don't.

 

[Kwami]

I haven't played the space games because I can't stand space 4x games. My only frame of reference is endless legends. And yes they have plenty of stuff like that, like "Indiana Bones" being an upgrade option that improves treasure hunting. But you are sort of just making assertions about the games respective degree to which they take themselves seriously or not. I provided tangible examples. I challenge you to do the same - and if the best you can come up with are other examples of flavor text, I'm not sure how strong you conclusion really is.

But your examples of Civ VI being childish and not serious were the art style and the flavor text. So why can't we use flavor text to show the same point about the Endless games?

[/QUOTE]I'm just calling it like I see it, having played every single Civ game since the DOS days. I can 100%, bet the company, say that 6 is the most childish and, as you said, "puerile" installment in the Civ series. I actually don't think this is the map either - my favorite thing about 6 compared to earlier games is, in fact, how the map looks and is generated. I just don't like the way any other part of the game looks or presents itself.[/QUOTE]

I mean, to each his own and all that, but Civ VI is also the most successful game so far, so I guess they're doing something right. I, for one, much prefer the current art style to the style in previous Civ games.

They are trite, I don't disagree with that, but I prefer trite to "haha we are Canadians and we drink maple syrup and wear toques, and our armed forces are entirely mounties."

The Mountie is a utility unit. The other stuff is not in the game. What are you even talking about?

Are you just here to argue?

 

[The Civs 6]

Look, if you make a statement like "I hate Picasso because I hate Impressionism," the fact that Picasso was not an Impressionist does not nullify your right to dislike Picasso--but it still doesn't make Picasso an Impressionist. You can personally dislike Civ6's art direction without writing it off as "childish."


The entire franchise is saturated with a tongue-in-cheek attitude, and yes the flavor text is relevant here because as a fictional setting the flavor text is the only context the game has. Endless is very self-aware and takes every opportunity to wink at the player. It's never totally serious. In tone it has a great deal in common with the likes of Monkey Island.


I can equally assure you they don't.

I mean at the end of the day they are all assertions, but I have provided examples to back up my assertions - have you? Can you?

But your examples of Civ VI being childish and not serious were the art style and the flavor text. So why can't we use flavor text to show the same point about the Endless games?

The Mountie is a utility unit. The other stuff is not in the game. What are you even talking about?

Are you just here to argue?

"The people of Canada present gifts of maple syrup, wool blankets, and our honored, traditional headgear: The toque."

So uhh. here to argue? Or are you just being intentionally difficult? You can disagree with the inferences I draw from that and the Canadian unique unit being the mounty, but it's another thing to just say that I am not basing my opinion on facts at all.

I'll talk with the other guy but you are just taking baseless pot shots at me so there is no point in engaging with you.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

They are trite, I don't disagree with that, but I prefer trite to "haha we are Canadians and we drink maple syrup and wear toques, and our armed forces are entirely mounties."

This is assuming the Canadians in Humankind don't come with Mounties as an EU and a Sugar Shack as an EQ.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

The Mountie is a utility unit. The other stuff is not in the game. What are you even talking about?

As a Canadian myself, there's not much to complain about this, hehe... The stuff he mentioned besides the mounties are in the delegation I believe. I can't complain about Civ 6 having these stereotypes in their Canada Civ, considering it is true. However, I somewhat wish that they had gone for a more New Canada approach with Samuel de Champlain as a leader. I, personally, have a bias for Civ 6 as it was my first Civ game I ever played.

 

[Kwami]

Oh, whatever. All of the leaders bring a few culturally-appropriate but kind of fun things as a gift. Is that seriously what you're complaining about? I can't imagine that this really matters, but Indiana Bones doesn't. You're just being ridiculous now.

Look, you like what you like. That's fine. Don't hate on the game that we all like just because it doesn't match your aesthetics. It's pointless and, frankly, off-topic.

 

[The Civs 6]

Oh, whatever. All of the leaders bring a few culturally-appropriate but kind of fun things as a gift. Is that seriously what you're complaining about? I can't imagine that this really matters, but Indiana Bones doesn't. You're just being ridiculous now.

Look, you like what you like. That's fine. Don't hate on the game that we all like just because it doesn't match your aesthetics. It's pointless and, frankly, off-topic.

I mean I'm not going to engage with you about, you know, facts about the game, since you don't seem to know those very well, but I would say given the great deal of negativity surrounding this game that you are truly ignorant if you think saying "we all like" this game is a valid or justifiable generalization. A lot of Civ people, especially old-timers like myself, aren't the biggest fans of this game. And really I'm saying I just dislike one aspect of it - I'm not saying the game is complete trash.

I know I've said this before, but this gamer attitude about criticism of a game is holding this entire genre back. In every other genre, whether it be film, or literature, people who enjoy the thing they are engaging with also enjoy criticizing that thing. It is a truly adolescent type of fixation that not only doesn't appreciate this aspect of art, but outright rejects it like you are trying to do here.

And also, going into a thread with this title, would you expect a few people to make unflattering statements about Civ? This isn't titled "Humanity IS NOT a Civ 6 killer" after all.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

As a Canadian myself, there's not much to complain about this, hehe... The stuff he mentioned besides the mounties are in the delegation I believe. I can't complain about Civ 6 having these stereotypes in their Canada Civ, considering it is true. However, I somewhat wish that they had gone for a more New Canada approach with Samuel de Champlain as a leader. I, personally, have a bias for Civ 6 as it was my first Civ game I ever played.

I don't mind the way they are portrayed speaking as a non Canadian. I was prepared for the Mountie and the hockey rinks to show up.

The thing is the way they designed the Cree first would have made a New France/Colonial Canadian civ kind of redundant which is why I understand why they focused more on the modern aspects of the country.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I don't mind the way they are portrayed speaking as a non Canadian. I was prepared for the Mountie and the hockey rinks to show up.

The thing is the way they designed the Cree first would have made a New France/Colonial Canadian civ kind of redundant which is why I understand why they focused more on the modern aspects of the country.

True... I'm fine with the way Canada is as well, I'm just saying I'm all for Samuel de Champlain as an alternate leader.

 

[Sostratus]

Why on Earth did the Civ designers choose this a cartoony aesthetic and a game that self-consciously made itself a game-board

Someone presumably pretty high up the chain went with the game board inspiration, but the art style and the colors were likely a good choice to introduce players to districts for the first time. They are all designed so we can tell at a glance what they are; if you have blues and reds and yellows in the city set, it will look really strange unless you change the terrain etc to match.
I don’t think they made an actively bad choice; I mean the units remind me of Civ4 more than anything. I prefer the civ5 look myself, but I can see where they were coming from. Can you imagine the complaints if they dropped the color coding?
(Also, policy cards are just an in between of Civ4 civics and civ5 social policies, which was a huge thing people wanted at the time.)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Someone presumably pretty high up the chain went with the game board inspiration, but the art style and the colors were likely a good choice to introduce players to districts for the first time. They are all designed so we can tell at a glance what they are; if you have blues and reds and yellows in the city set, it will look really strange unless you change the terrain etc to match.

That someone is probably Ed Beach, the lead designer of Civ 6, who also has designed board games.