HUMANKIND a Civ VI killer?

[Kwami]

I mean I'm not going to engage with you about, you know, facts about the game, since you don't seem to know those very well, but I would say given the great deal of negativity surrounding this game that you are truly ignorant if you think saying "we all like" this game is a valid or justifiable generalization. A lot of Civ people, especially old-timers like myself, aren't the biggest fans of this game. And really I'm saying I just dislike one aspect of it - I'm not saying the game is complete trash.

I know I've said this before, but this gamer attitude about criticism of a game is holding this entire genre back. In every other genre, whether it be film, or literature, people who enjoy the thing they are engaging with also enjoy criticizing that thing. It is a truly adolescent type of fixation that not only doesn't appreciate this aspect of art, but outright rejects it like you are trying to do here.

Frankly, you've had a negative, pretentious, and kind of just mean attitude from the start. I'm tired of it, so this will be my last post to you.

1. I have no problem with criticizing a game, a movie, or anything else. I do it all the time. I'm sure that I've done it on this forum more than once. There are plenty of things to criticize about Civ VI. But criticizing something isn't the same as, "This art sucks, this game is for kids." That's useless criticism that does absolutely nothing to advance the game, genre, or industry. When it comes to aesthetics, you can't please everyone. The vast majority of players are OK with or even like the current aesthetics. So, deal with it. If you have actual criticisms about how the game actually plays, then that's a different situation. But so far, you've just been complaining about the cartoons and maple syrup and then reducing the entire game to "childish" and "puerile". It's a waste of time.

2. Of course, not everyone likes this game. Are you going to read every word for its literal meaning, or are you going to be reasonable? Most of the people posting in the Civ VI forum actually, you know, like Civ VI. We don't like everything about it, but we do like the game. That's why we're here. And since this game has sold far more copies than any previous game, I guess we're not alone.

3. No, I haven't memorized every single delegation offering in the game. Who does that? I just click them away and get back to playing. I'm sure that they were all fun the first time, but that was forever ago in the case of Laurier. But hey, if you want to use this is proof that I don't know anything about the game, then you do you. Have fun.

This nonsense is all off topic, now. I'm done with it.

 

[Zaarin]

I mean at the end of the day they are all assertions, but I have provided examples to back up my assertions

1) No, you haven't.
2) Some people have lives and don't treat online discussions about video games with the same seriousness as a doctoral thesis.
a) Sometimes I do, but frankly we're not even talking about the historical bases for mechanics or the accomplishments of leaders. We're talking about art style.

I know I've said this before, but this gamer attitude about criticism of a game is holding this entire genre back. In every other genre, whether it be film, or literature, people who enjoy the thing they are engaging with also enjoy criticizing that thing. It is a truly adolescent type of fixation that not only doesn't appreciate this aspect of art, but outright rejects it like you are trying to do here.

Wow. And you accuse other people of strawmen...

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Wow. And you accuse other people of strawmen...

Yep. It's actually hilarious that he says you're unwilling to criticize Civ 6 when you have sometimes brutally criticized it many times. I'm sure you still enjoy it, and so do I, but the fact he says we don't criticize Civ 6 is pretty wrong. Of course, he didn't target me specifically, but I feel as if he is generalizing.

 

[The Civs 6]

1) No, you haven't.
2) Some people have lives and don't treat online discussions about video games with the same seriousness as a doctoral thesis.
a) Sometimes I do, but frankly we're not even talking about the historical bases for mechanics or the accomplishments of leaders. We're talking about art style.


Wow. And you accuse other people of strawmen...

I mean that's a classic argument style - hold yourself to no standard of proof and hold the person you are arguing with to the highest standard of proof. I did offer examples, whether you agree with them or not. You can call them unpersuasive examples, but they were examples. You call me out and you refuse to back up your point. I don't really know what to say to all that. You started with the ad hominem stuff. I didn't engage with that at all.

I might be totally wrong about my point but you refuse to engage with me in any way. You decided to click on a thread with the title that it has. So the world is a little worse off because we can't hear your fantastic and well-reasoned counter-argument as to why the Endless series is actually taking itself less seriously than Civ.

Yep. It's actually hilarious that he says you're unwilling to criticize Civ 6 when you have sometimes brutally criticized it many times. I'm sure you still enjoy it, and so do I, but the fact he says we don't criticize Civ 6 is pretty wrong. Of course, he didn't target me specifically, but I feel as if he is generalizing.

Well I hope that he went on long diatribes such as the one below against himself when he brutally criticized the game. Or he would just be a hypocrit.

Frankly, you've had a negative, pretentious, and kind of just mean attitude from the start. I'm tired of it, so this will be my last post to you.

1. I have no problem with criticizing a game, a movie, or anything else. I do it all the time. I'm sure that I've done it on this forum more than once. There are plenty of things to criticize about Civ VI. But criticizing something isn't the same as, "This art sucks, this game is for kids." That's useless criticism that does absolutely nothing to advance the game, genre, or industry. When it comes to aesthetics, you can't please everyone. The vast majority of players are OK with or even like the current aesthetics. So, deal with it. If you have actual criticisms about how the game actually plays, then that's a different situation. But so far, you've just been complaining about the cartoons and maple syrup and then reducing the entire game to "childish" and "puerile". It's a waste of time.

2. Of course, not everyone likes this game. Are you going to read every word for its literal meaning, or are you going to be reasonable? Most of the people posting in the Civ VI forum actually, you know, like Civ VI. We don't like everything about it, but we do like the game. That's why we're here. And since this game has sold far more copies than any previous game, I guess we're not alone.

3. No, I haven't memorized every single delegation offering in the game. Who does that? I just click them away and get back to playing. I'm sure that they were all fun the first time, but that was forever ago in the case of Laurier. But hey, if you want to use this is proof that I don't know anything about the game, then you do you. Have fun.

This nonsense is all off topic, now. I'm done with it.

It's so funny that you have this little diatribe when YOU are the one that started attacking me by saying that I was being argumentative. I just offered my opinion - I criticized a game and used some rhetorical flourishes, you make it sound like I criticized a child of yours. And I'll say this to you too - if you are this sensitive, you are the one who decided to click on a thread with this title!

 

[Sostratus]

That someone is probably Ed Beach, the lead designer of Civ 6, who also has designed board games.

I mean we all know it was Ed. But I didn’t want to make it sound like I was saying “go wave your pitchfork at him!”

Games are games, the only difference between the media being board games involve Only human players And the structure has to be simple enough for a human to follow without constantly looking at the rule book. In a computer you can force the players to follow unlimited rules so it’s less of an issue.

 

[The Civs 6]

To get this thread back on track, I also earlier in this thread said that I abhorred the tactical combat in Endless and that would always be a hurdle to my enjoyment. That's still true, because I don't feel like I can properly use the support units. But I found I can sort of create a "head canon" that it's just my generals messing it up, and as the emperor or whatever I just have to deal with the consequences of that.

But in general I am also not convinced that the Endless has the strategic depth that Civ does. Like, for example, I feel like the wonders that are in Endless are way less balanced than what is in 6. And the heroes system in Endless, despite being better than in 6, also feels kind of broken in its own way.

So I'm not one dimensional on this issue. Just on the aesthetic dimension I feel such a huge disparity exists between the games.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Well I hope that he went on long diatribes such as the one below against himself when he brutally criticized the game. Or he would just be a hypocrit.

What? "Such as the one below against himself when he brutally criticized the game." I don't understand what you mean by that. He has criticized Civ 6 for its bad handling of ancient Civs(besides Phoenicia), how the Game Modes make the game a bit too fantastical and how he prefers the game before it, and so on.

I'm glad you're not one-dimensional about this argument, but the way you say it just makes it seem a bit aggressive. No bad faith intended.

Also, to put this thread back on track, Humankind seems like something I would probably want to get. So while I'm not too excited, I will be asking for it as a birthday present.

 

[Zaarin]

You started with the ad hominem stuff.

...No, I didn't. I haven't engaged in any ad hominem arguments or talked about you at all, except for pointing out the irony that you accused others of strawman arguments while building some hefty strawmen of your own. TBH you're spoiling for a fight, and most people are just here to casually discuss a game they enjoy. Maybe try Twitter?

 

[8housesofelixir]

And the heroes system in Endless, despite being better than in 6, also feels kind of broken in its own way.

I haven't played any Endless games, but to my knowledge (having a friend who is an old Amplitude fan who have tend to recommend the games to me constantly) the series put a strong emphasis on Heroes, making them mini-RPG protagonists. It seems Humankind will be their first game to not have Heroes, which is an interesting departure.

 

[The Civs 6]

I haven't played any Endless games, but to my knowledge (having a friend who is an old Amplitude fan who have tend to recommend the games to me constantly) the series put a strong emphasis on Heroes, making them mini-RPG protagonists. It seems Humankind will be their first game to not have Heroes, which is an interesting departure.

Just to provide some frame of reference, and not that this is the entire hero system in a nutshell, but one type of hero gives you up to +45% production in a city - and that's not even a contender for the top 2 most useful city governor promotions available to heroes.

 

[Kwami]

I haven't played any Endless games, but to my knowledge (having a friend who is an old Amplitude fan who have tend to recommend the games to me constantly) the series put a strong emphasis on Heroes, making them mini-RPG protagonists. It seems Humankind will be their first game to not have Heroes, which is an interesting departure.

Yes, heroes were a big part of every Endless game. Some of the same characters appeared in multiple Endless games, too. I rather enjoyed the heroes, so I was happy to see Civ VI add them, though of course the two systems are quite different.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please cease the personal back and forth and get back to the topic. There are many threads that concern Civ6's art style, please do not hijack this one.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Speaking of quotes - I know a lot of people dislike VI's quotes - then here are the Humankind culture quotes.

Ancient:
Nubians: "Anything under the sun can be exchanged for enough gold."
Olmecs: "All that was, and is, and will be, is written in the stars."
Phoenicians: "Unlike the lands, the seas give the merchant no obstructions."
Zhou: "Judge not an empire by the strength of its armies."
Assyrians: "The tallest blade is the first to be cut by the scythe."
Hittites: "Our charioteers must train for many moons before entering the battle."
Babylonians: "Where the mind can see, the physical body can follow."
Egyptians: "The seed cannot sprout upwards without also sending down roots."
Harappans: "In one drop of water are found all the secrets of life."
Mycenaeans: "Illustrious warriors have the whole earth for their tomb."

Classical:
Mayans: "Great feats of architecture honor the majesty of the cosmos."
Persians: "Go as far as eye can see and when you get there you'll see further."
Romans: "Throw me to the wolves and I will return leading the pack."
Aksumites: "The one who controls the market controls the world."
Greeks: "Let us clash words in the amphitheatron and swords on the battlefield."
Carthaginians: "Over seas and lands, our trade routes will criss-cross the world."
Celts: "Let the ballads to gods and heroes echo deep in our forests."
Goths: "The fallen will not be forgotten as we fight for greatness."
Huns: "All will think the world splits asunder upon hearing our steeds."
Mauryans: "Only a fool dismisses other cultures without consideration."

Medieval:
Norsemen: "The enemy's coastlines are long, and we are many."
Aztec: "May we witness the sun rise in a thousand lands."
Byzantines: "Let markets enrich us, and antiquities enlighten us."
Franks: "To do what is right, we must know what is right."
Ghanaians: "Our markets hold all the wonders of the senses."
Teutons: "Let justice be done, though the world perish."
Khmer: "A mountain never has two tigers."
English: "The plow is mightier than the sword."
Mongols: "Wind through the hair, blood on the blade. That is enough."
Umayyads: "In the mosques we pray, in the libraries we record."

Early Modern:
Edo Japanese: "Patience means restraining one's inclinations."
Haudenosaunee: "Let the roots of peace spread to all points of the compass."

Industrial:
Germans: "Waging war requires courage, purpose, and an iron determination."
Italians: "Art is fine food, great craftsmanship, and unrestrained passion."
British: "We are not interested in the possibility of defeat."
French: "Judge of a person by their questions rather than their answers."
Austro-Hungarians: "The language of music has no borders."
Mexicans: "They tried to bury us. They didn't know we were seeds."
Siamese: "Anything can be built with enough imagination."


Some of them are good, with clear attributions and themed well. Some of them are weird - for instance, the Greek one sounds really generalist; so as the A-H and Siam one, I cannot see anything Austrian or Siamese in their quotes. The Khmer one is actually a Chinese idiom, 一山不容二虎, instead of a Khmer idiom (although we may need to ask @Andrew Johnson [FXS] about if this idiom has a Khmer version/origin); and the affinity of Khmer is Builder, I really failed to see how an idiom about power struggle fit into the theme of the Builder.

In terms of these cultural quotes, which is part of the "flavor texts" discussed above, I would say Humankind is not entirely superior than Civ's leader intros, cf. NFP's generalist civ leader intros.

Can't speak to all of these, but several are obviously fictitious:

The Olmec and Harappan are quotes from people whose languages we have not been able to translate, so they came from somewhere else.
The Greek quote is unlikely: the Greeks never referred to the Sword as a metaphor for military action, they used the Spear (kontos or xyton), as in "Won by the Spear" as a metaphor for a slave taken in battle. Also, nobody 'clashed words' in the amphitreon, debate and political speech and argument were for the Assembly or Agora.
Any Celtic quote pretty much has to have been filtered through a Greek or Roman visitor, because we have literally nothing written down and recorded from the Celts themselves.

Not saying any of them are intrinsically bad, just that some, at least, are artificial - as are most of Civ VIs.

 

[8housesofelixir]

The Olmec and Harappan are quotes from people whose languages we have not been able to translate, so they came from somewhere else.

A quick googling tells me the Harappan line is from "In one drop of water are found all the secrets of all the oceans; in one aspect of You are found all the aspects of existence." of Kahlil Gibran Jr..

Again, I cannot see anything Harappan or anything really related to their theme - the Harappans in the HMK are of Agrarian affinity - in this quote.

 

[Zaarin]

A quick googling tells me the Harappan line is from "In one drop of water are found all the secrets of all the oceans; in one aspect of You are found all the aspects of existence." of Kahlil Gibran

That's an...interesting choice. Kahlil Gibran was a Lebano-American poet. (A brilliant one--I love his work--but absolutely nothing to do with Harappa.)

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I tried to find any quotes about the Harappans, but so far, all I got was nothing close to inspirational. It's all just research and analysis.

 

[8housesofelixir]

That's an...interesting choice. Kahlil Gibran was a Lebano-American poet. (A brilliant one--I love his work--but absolutely nothing to do with Harappa.)

Gibran is undoubtedly brilliant and famous, although the quote really sounds out of the context. "In one drop of water are found all the secrets of life" sounds more Scientific or Aesthetic than Agrarian.

Well, other Agrarian quotes (Celts, English, Haudenosaunee) aren't a fit either.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Gibran is undoubtedly brilliant and famous, although the quote really sounds out of the context. "In one drop of water are found all the secrets of life" sounds more Scientific or Aesthetic than Agrarian.

Well, other Agrarian quotes (Celts, English, Haudenosaunee) aren't a fit either.

The Celts seem more Religious, Haudenosaunee are Diplomatic, and the English are just screwed over with a lousy quote. Have something about their Navy, for goodness' sake!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Gibran is undoubtedly brilliant and famous, although the quote really sounds out of the context. "In one drop of water are found all the secrets of life" sounds more Scientific or Aesthetic than Agrarian.

Well, other Agrarian quotes (Celts, English, Haudenosaunee) aren't a fit either.

It's probably just a reference to their sophisticated ancient canal network. At least that's how I feel and there is nothing more to really look into.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Have something about their Navy, for goodness' sake!

The English of HMK is Medieval English, which......didn't have anything interesting in their naval history besides being invaded by Norsemen and the decedents of Norsemen.

It's probably just a reference to their sophisticated ancient canal network. At least that's how I feel and there is nothing more to really look into.

I think the water in the canals are more than a drop and irrigation isn't something secret or mythical either. There is really nothing more to look into, just a quote.

My (personal) problem with Humankind's cultural quotes is that, they don't provide much flavor, and if you remove them, nothing will lost. Unlike Civ VI's fully-voiced loading screen quotes, the Humankind cultural quotes will only show up when you are choosing a culture, as an extra line of words stick to the culture's cover art. It would be much better if it is just a brief introduction of that culture (Amplitude devs did state that they will add an in-game wiki in the full release).