HUMANKIND a Civ VI killer?

[chazzycat]

It's not about what I like or not, but how much mediocrity a product can get away with depending on the level of "conformism" of its market...

can't you like go start a civ 6 haters website or something? this one is for fanatics

 

[pokiehl]

The answer is really simple. The negative comments are by dedicated civ fanatics historical 4x players that have no option if we want to play the most modern version of this historical 4x game because there is only one currently on the market. When there is more than one game (ie Humankind) we will be gone from the civ6 forums I can assure you.

If civ7 is good we will praise it and mod it as we have done for other great things Firaxis have created over the last two decades.

To understand where we are coming you have to see that the frontier pack is bloatware from our perspective and that bloatware came after years of wasted time where the civ6 code went nowhere when so much could have been achieved on it. So Firaxis doubled up on neglect during the civ6 development cycle in order to make money with quantity not quality (a design decision).

We don't want Firaxis to make that design decision again for the sake of the company as much as the game.

Yet again I don’t know what any of this has to do with what I’ve been asking. All 3 of you refuse to address the simple question I posed. My addressing the same strawman arguments over and over doesn’t further the conversation, so let’s agree to disagree and end it here.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

The answer is really simple. The negative comments are by dedicated civ fanatics historical 4x players that have no option if we want to play the most modern version of this historical 4x game because there is only one currently on the market. When there is more than one game (ie Humankind) we will be gone from the civ6 forums I can assure you.

If civ7 is good we will praise it and mod it as we have done for other great things Firaxis have created over the last two decades.

To understand where we are coming you have to see that the frontier pack is bloatware from our perspective and that bloatware came after years of wasted time where the civ6 code went nowhere when so much could have been achieved on it. So Firaxis doubled up on neglect during the civ6 development cycle in order to make money with quantity not quality (a design decision).

We don't want Firaxis to make that design decision again for the sake of the company as much as the game.

I mean, fostering a healthy mod community is just as important for the survivability of the company as it is for the game. The two are one and the same, since I would argue that it is the mod community that kept the Civ franchise and the 4X genre alive.

I also think that, while Humankind will still be behind the curve at release, whether it survives and/or surpasses Civ will depend quite heavily on how well-supported its mod community is (and as a separate pillar, how robust its multiplayer features are). If Humankind can't manage to meet baseline for mods (or otherwise somehow break new ground for 4X multiplayer feasibility), I think it will meet a similar fate as other civ games, if not completely drop off the radar because Civ case to some extent survive and build momentum based on several decades of brand loyalty.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I mean, fostering a healthy mod community is just as important for the survivability of the company as it is for the game. The two are one and the same, since I would argue that it is the mod community that kept the Civ franchise and the 4X genre alive.

I also think that, while Humankind will still be behind the curve at release, whether it survives and/or surpasses Civ will depend quite heavily on how well-supported its mod community is (and as a separate pillar, how robust its multiplayer features are). If Humankind can't manage to meet baseline for mods (or otherwise somehow break new ground for 4X multiplayer feasibility), I think it will meet a similar fate as other civ games, if not completely drop off the radar because Civ case to some extent survive and build momentum based on several decades of brand loyalty.

speaking of which did Humankind creators have said anything on mod sustainability? What if there is ZERO mod support for it?

 

[Aristos]

I mean, fostering a healthy mod community is just as important for the survivability of the company as it is for the game. The two are one and the same, since I would argue that it is the mod community that kept the Civ franchise and the 4X genre alive.

I also think that, while Humankind will still be behind the curve at release, whether it survives and/or surpasses Civ will depend quite heavily on how well-supported its mod community is (and as a separate pillar, how robust its multiplayer features are). If Humankind can't manage to meet baseline for mods (or otherwise somehow break new ground for 4X multiplayer feasibility), I think it will meet a similar fate as other civ games, if not completely drop off the radar because Civ case to some extent survive and build momentum based on several decades of brand loyalty.

True. On the other hand, let's take UI as an example because UI mods are by far the most prevalent for Civ 6, both because there is no DLL source so we are limited to the little we can mod, most of it the UI, but also because the UI in Civ 6 is, to say the least, lacking. The irony of this is that I expect HK to be a master class in UI, given the proven record of Amplitude games in this regard. Thus, if that holds true, there will not be a high demand nor need for UI mods if at all.

In other words, moddability is certainly a big factor, but sometimes the lack of mods or demand for them in an area can mean that the area is well served.

About brand loyalty... well, many of us have been with Civ for its entire lifetime, and that is why we care a lot, including harsh criticism. That's why we mod, that's why we complain here about the things that we find wrong, and that is why we root for competition, because it is the most powerful force to make products, and companies, change direction if the one that they selected is not "optimal" (in quotes because it is a very hard and dynamic concept). That is why I want HK to succeed, because I like the direction they are going, I like some of the systems in their games (namely combat), but most of all, because I like the Civ genre and 4X historical strategy gaming, and I want it to survive and succeed as such, be it Civ or whoever takes the throne, if any. Or all of them.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

speaking of which did Humankind creators have said anything on mod sustainability? What if there is ZERO mod support for it?

I'm pretty sure they have mod support in Humankind, based on the info I have, but I don't know the extent of the modding capabilities.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

speaking of which did Humankind creators have said anything on mod sustainability? What if there is ZERO mod support for it?

I'm pretty sure they have mod support in Humankind, based on the info I have, but I don't know the extent of the modding capabilities.

There was a blurb on the website that indicated that basic modding like changing tags and values would be available from the beginning, but that importing assets wouldn't be initially available. Or that was the general gist of things.

True. On the other hand, let's take UI as an example because UI mods are by far the most prevalent for Civ 6, both because there is no DLL source so we are limited to the little we can mod, most of it the UI, but also because the UI in Civ 6 is, to say the least, lacking. The irony of this is that I expect HK to be a master class in UI, given the proven record of Amplitude games in this regard. Thus, if that holds true, there will not be a high demand nor need for UI mods if at all.

In other words, moddability is certainly a big factor, but sometimes the lack of mods or demand for them in an area can mean that the area is well served.

About brand loyalty... well, many of us have been with Civ for its entire lifetime, and that is why we care a lot, including harsh criticism. That's why we mod, that's why we complain here about the things that we find wrong, and that is why we root for competition, because it is the most powerful force to make products, and companies, change direction if the one that they selected is not "optimal" (in quotes because it is a very hard and dynamic concept). That is why I want HK to succeed, because I like the direction they are going, I like some of the systems in their games (namely combat), but most of all, because I like the Civ genre and 4X historical strategy gaming, and I want it to survive and succeed as such, be it Civ or whoever takes the throne, if any. Or all of them.

I will concede that HK seems to have a much cleaner interface and therefore necessity it not the mother of invention for that aspect of mods. Though I would argue that I see far more mods for V and VI that are more about balancing the game than fixing/adding to the UI. And to a lesser extent there are still many custom civilization/city-state/wonder mods that go beyond fixing the game to extending replayability far longer than official content encourages.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

There was a blurb on the website that indicated that basic modding like changing tags and values would be available from the beginning, but that importing assets wouldn't be initially available. Or that was the general gist of things.

meaning modding on Humankind wouldn't be better than civ 6 is currently...
and people give flags on civ 6 for poor mod support.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Interested in why people here aren't talking about Old World as much as Humankind. It's odd to me. OW has a lot going for it.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Interested in why people here aren't talking about Old World as much as Humankind. It's odd to me. OW has a lot going for it.

Probably because it's an Epic exclusive and the developers have been pretty quiet recently. I've seen some articles about Humankind on some gaming websites over the past couple of months but nothing on Old World. Definitely looking forward to digging into Old World after it's early access is over.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Probably because it's an Epic exclusive and the developers have been pretty quiet recently. I've seen some articles about Humankind on some gaming websites over the past couple of months but nothing on Old World. Definitely looking forward to digging into Old World after it's early access is over.

I bought the early access. Haven't been able to fire it up for a while but it has a lot of neat things going on.

 

[InsidiousMage]

I bought the early access. Haven't been able to fire it up for a while but it has a lot of neat things going on.

Same here. I gave it try and was definitely intrigued but didn't feel like really digging into since NFP was just starting. I checked their website like a month ago and they've made so many improvements and changes to the game that I'm really looking forward to it. Seems like it could be the perfect cross between Civ and Crusader Kings.

 

[Aristos]

I will concede that HK seems to have a much cleaner interface and therefore necessity it not the mother of invention for that aspect of mods. Though I would argue that I see far more mods for V and VI that are more about balancing the game than fixing/adding to the UI. And to a lesser extent there are still many custom civilization/city-state/wonder mods that go beyond fixing the game to extending replayability far longer than official content encourages.

Mods, or categories, should be judged by the number of subscribers. Sum up the subs for UI vs any other category, and you shall see.

 

[pokiehl]

Mods, or categories, should be judged by the number of subscribers. Sum up the subs for UI vs any other category, and you shall see.

Of the 8 most subscribed Civ 6 mods, only 1, ranked #5, is actually a UI mod, with 150k subs. For comparison, YNAMP (a gameplay mod) has 400k

 

[Aristos]

Interested in why people here aren't talking about Old World as much as Humankind. It's odd to me. OW has a lot going for it.

Less visibility so far due to Epic excl, but also because the civ magic is about "all" eras in one epic run... OTOH, Soren Johnson. 'Nough said.

Seems like it could be the perfect cross between Civ and Crusader Kings.

Now that would be one of those inbred deformities ala CK.

Of the 8 most subscribed Civ 6 mods, only 1, ranked #5, is actually a UI mod, with 150k subs. For comparison, YNAMP (a gameplay mod) has 400k

Sum them up. All of them.

 

[pokiehl]

Sum them up. All of them.

Among the top 30 most subscribed mods, only 3 are UI mods. Simple math tells me that it won’t sum up the way you think. Feel free to show your work.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Mods, or categories, should be judged by the number of subscribers. Sum up the subs for UI vs any other category, and you shall see.

Hmmm yeah I think that may be the best metric. Although I also think total number of (active) modders is a useful metric.

 

[Zegangani]

speaking of which did Humankind creators have said anything on mod sustainability? What if there is ZERO mod support for it?

The Humankind Devs stated in a live streaming interview that the Game was designed from the beginning to be modding friendly and they put extra effort for that. The Things that will be moddable, are (most of this won't be available at launch (although maybe yes, due to the delayed realease that might give enough Time to the devs to make these happen)):
- In terms of Values/Parameters and reusing stuff from the game (including Art Assets), like how we can change the Current Civ VI Database I suppose,
- Easy Moddable for any type of Modder (if you want to change some art/textures then you don't need to learn coding) with Tools from Unity,
- The AI will be completely Moddable,
- There will also be a Worlbuilder to make Maps. They put a lot of emphasize on Scenario moddability with the Worldbuilder (Players will have enough Possibilities to make any Scenario Possible),
- Making and adding New Assets to the game (like new Units/Infrastructures...etc),
- Changing the Map Terrains/Features/Biome and adding new ones with complete new Assets... etc

The Devs claimed that apart from the Avatars and UI (and scripting - but kept the option open (undecided), so maybe sometime in the Future, though), the Game will be pretty much completely moddable, eventhough the Tools won't be all available at launch. They also made a while ago a Vote of 3 Mod Themes to choose from (Fantasy, Sci-Fi, Alternate History) so they can make a Big Mod for one Theme so that Modders will have an Idea of what can be achieved with the Modding Tools.

Spoiler Winner of the Vote: :

Sci-Fi!

Also, The Game is made with Unity, so the DLL files might be somehow moddable with some Unity DLL Modding Tools.
So if things go as announced/expected, then the Game will be much more moddable than Civ VI. But this latter has good Modding aspects, like UI, Selection Rules of some Art Assets, Scripting... to Name a few. Yet, it remains to be seen how Humankind is really going to be moddable . That all sounds great to me, especially as a Modder, but I'm keeping my hopes low, till I have the Game and it's Modding Tools in front of my Nose.

 

[Aristos]

Among the top 30 most subscribed mods, only 3 are UI mods. Simple math tells me that it won’t sum up the way you think. Feel free to show your work.

Ha... maybe I will stand corrected, I did the analysis a long time ago and assumed nothing changed.

 

[Kwami]

The Humankind Devs stated in a live streaming interview that the Game was designed from the beginning to be modding friendly and they put extra effort for that. The Things that will be moddable, are (most of this won't be available at launch (although maybe yes, due to the delayed realease that might give enough Time to the devs to make these happen)):
- In terms of Values/Parameters and reusing stuff from the game (including Art Assets), like how we can change the Current Civ VI Database I suppose,
- Easy Moddable for any type of Modder (if you want to change some art/textures then you don't need to learn coding) with Tools from Unity,
- The AI will be completely Moddable,
- There will also be a Worlbuilder to make Maps. They put a lot of emphasize on Scenario moddability with the Worldbuilder (Players will have enough Possibilities to make any Scenario Possible),
- Making and adding New Assets to the game (like new Units/Infrastructures...etc),
- Changing the Map Terrains/Features/Biome and adding new ones with complete new Assets... etc

The Devs claimed that apart from the Avatars and UI (and scripting - but kept the option open (undecided), so maybe sometime in the Future, though), the Game will be pretty much completely moddable, eventhough the Tools won't be all available at launch. They also made a while ago a Vote of 3 Mod Themes to choose from (Fantasy, Sci-Fi, Alternate History) so they can make a Big Mod for one Theme so that Modders will have an Idea of what can be achieved with the Modding Tools.

Spoiler Winner of the Vote: :

Sci-Fi!

Also, The Game is made with Unity, so the DLL files might be somehow moddable with some Unity DLL Modding Tools.
So if things go as announced/expected, then the Game will be much more moddable than Civ VI. But this latter has good Modding aspects, like UI, Selection Rules of some Art Assets, Scripting... to Name a few. Yet, it remains to be seen how Humankind is really going to be moddable . That all sounds great to me, especially as a Modder, but I'm keeping my hopes low, till I have the Game and it's Modding Tools in front of my Nose.

So, you can change some values and eventually you'll be able to import new assets. But you can't change the UI, you can't add or modify scripts, and there's no promise of DLL access. I can't imagine that the AI is really "completely moddable" without access to the DLL or at least scripts. Maybe you can change some values? OK.

I mean, Firaxis made a big deal about VI being the most mod-friendly game in the series and made all kinds of promises about the world builder, but here we are 5 years later. So, I guess we'll see if Amplitude does any better. It's not looking great so far.

As for Old World, check back when it's available on a better platform than Epic. Until then, meh.