I cried today...

[CaptainF]

"Made" to be? Gone religious on us?

And what is your point exactally?

No matter what we do, our instincts will always tell us to be predatorial. This whole trade ripping off thing as well as the current war and just about any other thing done in humanity's history is testament to this.

Man, I do like religious-esque monologue now don't I?

 

[Narz]

No matter what we do, our instincts will always tell us to be predatorial. This whole trade ripping off thing as well as the current war and just about any other thing done in humanity's history is testament to this.

So we are slaves to our past then?

There is more to history than just war you know.

Humans cooperate much better than we fight. And with better results.

Should we throw up our arms and blame human nation? Doesn't seem to me the ideal approach to world affairs (or any affairs) personally.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Oh the irony.

White Elk's political views are influenced by Hollywood.....

What would some of our European friends call that? I think they call that a "typical American."

Of course allowing the America-centriced Hollywood to influence one's geopolitical beliefs is bad right?

America has invaded Alfganistan, Iraq, and now theres plans for invading Iran, this isn't the America it used to be

When did the America you are talking about exist exaclty? 1783?

I can't think of a single decade since then when the US hasn't been invading and attacking other countries.

White Elk pointed that out pretty clearly I think.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

No, please do, get started.



So, because there is other, perhaps unacknowledged evil in the world, let's pretend that our actions as Americans don't matter?

You, I and White Elk live in America. Our actions are what we can control. Thinking that "there are so many worse than us" and then proceeding as if you heard nothing achieves nothing.

Am I aware that American corporations have done bad things around the world in order to increase their profits? Of course, I am. But I'll tell you why this is just an exercise in America bashing and all this weeping at the plight of the downtrodden is a bunch of b.s. If he really cared so much about the poor, he would care about all of them, not just those that have been abused by US business interests. Why not a single mention of what foreign corporations have done? Why doesnt that make him cry too?

Another thing. If he thinks America is such a satanic force in the world, what is he doing here? He thinks he's fighting the evil US by just refraining from buying Maxwell House coffee? What about the taxes he pays to the demonic US government? What about the electricity he uses in his home? Evil American corporations profit from that. If I felt the way he did about the US, Id immigrate to a capitalist free paradise, like Cuba or North Korea.

I don't not see any of this hostility directed towars WhiteElk as being justified.

If it was an isolated thing, there wouldnt be anywhere near as much hostility. But you know, Americans who, unlike him, love their country, get pretty sick and tired of remaining silent while people seething with hatred for America bash us and our country.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Why not a single mention of what foreign corporations have done? Why doesnt that make him cry too?

I've not seen the film but knowing that it's Hollywood I presume that there isn't a single mention of a forgeign corporation in it. Perhaps if he'd watched a film about a foriegn corporation he'd have cried at that.

If I felt the way he did about the US, Id immigrate to a capitalist free paradise, like Cuba or North Korea.

They allow American's to immigrate into North Korea?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I've not seen the film but knowing that it's Hollywood I presume that there isn't a single mention of a forgeign corporation in it. Perhaps if he'd watched a film about a foriegn corporation he'd have cried at that.

Unfortunately the only movie involving a foreign corporation I can think of is Willy Wonka.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Unfortunately the only movie involving a foreign corporation I can think of is Willy Wonka.

I've not seen The Constant Gardener, is that a US corporation or a British one? I ask if British because a pharmaceutical company over here wasn't happy with it.

 

[Samson]

But i dont hear anyone crying about BP or the other european oil companies when they have an oil spill.

European oil companies get pleanty of stick over here. Esp. Shell for what they did in nigeria and with that oil rig they wanted to just sink.

 

[Shaihulud]

Injustice and suffering is part of the human existence, if you let yourself be affected too much by it, it will drive you to depression. Don't let people who doesn't feel it drive you mad, its because they have learn to deal with the facts.

 

[Spartan117]

is lord of war a good movie...i should maybe see it

 

[Narz]

Am I aware that American corporations have done bad things around the world in order to increase their profits? Of course, I am. But I'll tell you why this is just an exercise in America bashing and all this weeping at the plight of the downtrodden is a bunch of b.s. If he really cared so much about the poor, he would care about all of them, not just those that have been abused by US business interests. Why not a single mention of what foreign corporations have done? Why doesnt that make him cry too?

Another thing. If he thinks America is such a satanic force in the world, what is he doing here? He thinks he's fighting the evil US by just refraining from buying Maxwell House coffee? What about the taxes he pays to the demonic US government? What about the electricity he uses in his home? Evil American corporations profit from that. If I felt the way he did about the US, Id immigrate to a capitalist free paradise, like Cuba or North Korea.

If it was an isolated thing, there wouldnt be anywhere near as much hostility. But you know, Americans who, unlike him, love their country, get pretty sick and tired of remaining silent while people seething with hatred for America bash us and our country.

If you think it is about "America basing" then you are missing the point. It's about making conscious decisions. That what it seems like to me anyway. Which is why he linked to the freetrade website at the end of his post. I personally haven't throughly examined the site but I imagine that many of the businesses listed there are AMERICAN OWNED AND OPERATED.

 

[Verbose]

Injustice and suffering is part of the human existence, if you let yourself be affected too much by it, it will drive you to depression. Don't let people who doesn't feel it drive you mad, its because they have learn to deal with the facts.

You don't think such an attitude is a recipy for indifference to a lot of soluble problems then, we can take it?

Facts can be changed.

 

[White Elk]

I'm very surprised by how many people have completely missed the point. And I'm disheartened that so many people resort to the "America Bashing" defense rather than actually discuss the salient points of this discussion. Allegations of America Bashing are cop-outs that rarely have any relation to the realities of the discussion. I think those who use the America Bashing defense, prejudice their thinking by making the assumption that critical speech towards the actions of the US government constitutes hatred or extreme prejudice towards America. This is as ridiculous as calling the "other side" American Fan Boys. These terms mean nothing! All they do is prejudice peoples thinking by reducing complex topics to shades of black and white. These terms polarize topics into extremes that limit forward progress. And stereotyping conscientious and outspoken Amercians that see fault within thier government as America Bashers, does a disservice to the posters and to the United States of America.

To me, being Patriotic to my country means that I take my responsibilty to voice my concerns over what I see as bad governing practices seriously. Patriotism is a responisibilty! It is not a privelage you gain simply by citizenship and blind obediance. Our forefathers made great sacrifice so that We The People can ensure that our government does not abuse its governing powers. I think it has. And I think it has for a very long time. And I see how these abuses fuels the hatred of my countries enemies. And the people of America along with the peoples of many other nations continue to pay the consequences of governmental actions that benefit the few at the cost of the many. To me America means We The People. And as far as I understand it, the US Gov is not acting in the best interests of the People. So for me to stay silent would be unpatriotic indeed. I honor our founding fathers by speaking my mind. I honor my Fathers service to this country. And I honor all of our freedom fighting Fathers before him. I honor the spirit and ideals from which my country was born. You who would retort to criticism of the US Gov as American Bashing, do a disservice to my country, and you dishonor the sacrifices that my people have paid to ensure that this country is run by We The People and not the District of Columbia.

 

[Sidhe]

Injustice and suffering is part of the human existence, if you let yourself be affected too much by it, it will drive you to depression. Don't let people who doesn't feel it drive you mad, its because they have learn to deal with the facts.

Don't let yourself fall into a malaise though, you may just learn to if not condone the facts ignore them. Still hoping in blind hope that the mistakes of the past, of which all the western powers are culpable are not repeated again in the future, somewhat naive to think they wont be though. The US's actions do somewhat pale into significance when compared to Europes, but we do have an excuse of it being old world history to point to, that said though

'lest we forget'

The worlds a different place from the Selfish arrogant needless manipulation of war for profit, or is it, is it now just the US's turn to blind itself to the deaths it's policies causes? Who knows? I'm hoping someone cares though, I think if you want the truth of the exploitation of South America you should look it up for yourself, not seen the film, may well be biased, I do remember reading about exploitation by oil companies though, pretty selfish IMO, can't blame the US alone, blame everyone.

 

[Narz]

I'm very surprised by how many people have completely missed the point. And I'm disheartened that so many people resort to the "America Bashing" defense rather than actually discuss the salient points of this discussion. Allegations of America Bashing are cop-outs that rarely have any relation to the realities of the discussion. I think those who use the America Bashing defense, prejudice their thinking by making the assumption that critical speech towards the actions of the US government constitutes hatred or extreme prejudice towards America. This is as ridiculous as calling the "other side" American Fan Boys. These terms mean nothing! All they do is prejudice peoples thinking by reducing complex topics to shades of black and white. These terms polarize topics into extremes that limit forward progress. And stereotyping conscientious and outspoken Amercians that see fault within thier government as America Bashers, does a disservice to the posters and to the United States of America.

To me, being Patriotic to my country means that I take my responsibilty to voice my concerns over what I see as bad governing practices seriously. Patriotism is a responisibilty! It is not a privelage you gain simply by citizenship and blind obediance. Our forefathers made great sacrifice so that We The People can ensure that our government does not abuse its governing powers. I think it has. And I think it has for a very long time. And I see how these abuses fuels the hatred of my countries enemies. And the people of America along with the peoples of many other nations continue to pay the consequences of governmental actions that benefit the few at the cost of the many. To me America means We The People. And as far as I understand it, the US Gov is not acting in the best interests of the People. So for me to stay silent would be unpatriotic indeed. I honor our founding fathers by speaking my mind. I honor my Fathers service to this country. And I honor all of our freedom fighting Fathers before him. I honor the spirit and ideals from which my country was born. You who would retort to criticism of the US Gov as American Bashing, do a disservice to my country, and you dishonor the sacrifices that my people have paid to ensure that this country is run by We The People and not the District of Columbia.

You tell 'em brother!

 

[Narz]

Don't let yourself fall into a malaise though, you may just learn to if not condone the facts ignore them.

Good advice.

Feel what you feel, and then do something about it! Posting about it and sharing links is a good start.

 

[White Elk]

I have much more to say in relation to my OP. But I have little time at the moment. So here are a few quick counter points to some of the responses this topic has generated...

America has done a great many Good things for the Peoples of other nations. While other nations have done great evils. I fail to see how this has anything to do with any past, present, or future wrong doing of the US Gov. Two rights don't correct a wrong! Evil is as Evil does.

I respect Capitalism and I am doing my best to make my own way in this world using this economic system. But I will not take from others for my own personal gains. The American Dream used to be that you start with scratch and that through hard work and sacrifice you make for yourself a more comfortable life. I feel this has changed drastically. For now it seems that it is all about getting rich quick and screwing others to do so. We have a saying in this country now.. "It's just business". That saying is used in our media to make evil deeds appear right. American corporations continue to use the US Gov to further their private aims. And the US Gov continues to use private American corporations to further its public policy. This is not the America I love. And this is not the America that my people have suffered so much to protect. This is capitalism gone bad. It is a good economic system that has been perverted by the greed of men. This modern capitalism hurts the many for the sake of the few. It runs counter to the principles of America that I hold dear. I don't hate capitalism. I hate the perversion of capitalism.

This movie, The Lord of War, was the straw that broke this elks back. I do not base my thoughts of American politics on some fictionalized fact based movie. The ending of that movie just happened to finally burst the floodgates of my compassion and frustration towards the victims of current US policies. And since many people missed this... The US backed arms trade (topic of the movie) is just one aspect of the point of my OP. The other aspects (like Walmart and Maxwell House) relate to the things these corps would do to their fellow humans just to make a bigger buck. In the case of the Coffee growers, they would displace communties of people who have been growing coffee for many many generations. They put these hardworking peoples into poverty. And they do this by using the power of the US Gov. Then rather than be happy with the subsistance growing of Coffee plants under the canopy of a healthy rainforest. These Amercian corps would burn and bulldoze these rainforests so that they can fit in more beans per square mile. Then they would pay these displaced and now impoverished peoples to run the machinery that destroys the lives and habitates of their neighbors. And of course the actions of these corps have far more consequences than just the local economies they destroy. This is what I meant by the raping and pillaging of Maxwell House etc...

I'm surprised that Bozo Erectus and others couldn't put these facts together. Perhaps it is because the US Gov works so hard against the Product Labeling that would allow us as consumers to choose between coffee grown by villages of hardworking and respectable people vs coffee grown by those who would rape and pillage these people and their land. I want to know whom I support with my purchases. For it is my money that supports their business practices. And so I am directly responsible for the suffering of their victims... if I was to buy from the Walmarts and Maxwell Houses of the world. I fully embrace this system of Capitalism by supporting ethical business and banning unethical business. It pisses me off that my Gov works so hard and spends so much of my peoples money to resist legislation against proper product labeling. Greedy people use my gov to fatten their pocketbooks. I have serious problem with this. And I shall continue to resist. And I will continue to spend the extra pennies to buy products that do not come from capitalist perverts. I am quite fine with having less toys than my neighbor so that I can make certain that my money goes to capitalizing people rather than capitalist pigs. I embrace capitalism by supporting ethical business. Unfortunatly in America our government is activelly working against this free choice. So we must work hard to find the alternatives that we do have. But as more and more people make the realization that they support crimes against the people by buying products from these amoral companies; then we will begin to change the world. As individuals our true political power lies in how we spend our money. Not in who or what we cast our ballot for. Know who and what you support with the pruchase of your products.

 

[Swiss Bezerker]

Moderator Action: Doesn't the post look better without all the foul language in it? Your warning with all the others on page 3 of this thread. - TY

You might want not to post your initials, The Yankee, for they also are inials for "thank you". people who dont know everyone here might get confused.

 

[blackheart]

I say this very rarely, but White Elk has just pwned everyone.

 

[Narz]

I say this very rarely, but White Elk has just pwned everyone.

It's not about pwning or losing. He just wants his point to be understood. And I'd say he's pretty elegant in the manner he expresses it.

But yeah, I see what you're saying.