I don't agree with them but....

First of all, I know its not most of them, but are you sure its just a few thousand? I guess you know more than me. Still, I knew it wasn't most of them.

So, you are claiming Islamists and Christians follow the same religion (Mind you, I don't, but I am asking for clarification)

What do you mean by "Very orthodox" and "Fairly orthodox" and which do you believe (I'm guessing Fairly orthodox based on the way you worded it but I'm not going to assume.)

You do realise you believe in the same God? Islam teaches that the Jews came first, then the Christians, then themselves. It's not the same religion, but the same idea of a monothestic God, they believe in Abraham, and Jacob etc as much as you do. They do believe the bible is tarnished, and the Koran isn't (We'll point out the contradictions there another day).
 
First of all, I know its not most of them, but are you sure its just a few thousand? I guess you know more than me. Still, I knew it wasn't most of them.

So, you are claiming Islamists and Christians follow the same religion (Mind you, I don't, but I am asking for clarification)

What do you mean by "Very orthodox" and "Fairly orthodox" and which do you believe (I'm guessing Fairly orthodox based on the way you worded it but I'm not going to assume.)

Essentially. They both claim descendance from Abraham
 
First of all, I know its not most of them, but are you sure its just a few thousand? I guess you know more than me. Still, I knew it wasn't most of them.

I'm pretty sure. I'm not speaking as a Muslim here, by the way, but as a student of international relations; I'm getting my numbers from my prof, who got his numbers from a CIA estimate.

So, you are claiming Islamists and Christians follow the same religion (Mind you, I don't, but I am asking for clarification)

First, I must take exception with the use of the word "Islamist." Islamism is a political movement with roots in Islam. It is quite modern--it started in the '20s and '30s--and most Muslims are not Islamists. Of course, needless to say, all Islamists are Muslims (we hope, anyway, lest my brain explode with the contradiction). I myself am a Muslim but not an Islamist.

Second: Yes and no. The Islamic position towards Judaism and Christianity is that (essentially) they are earlier forms of the One True God's (whether you call him God, YHWH, or Allah is irrelevant) faith that have been changed over time. Whether or not that One True God's faith is perfectly identifiable with Islam (i.e. that Christianity and Judaism originally preached exactly what Islam preaches) is a subject of debate among Muslim religious scholars.

What this means w/r/t your question isn't exactly certain. You could say that they are all forms of the same religion. Alternately, you could say that they are separate religions from one tradition. That tradition as a whole is not considered to be wrong by the vast majority of Muslims. From an Islamic perspective, Christianity is not so much a wrong religion as a different, mostly-right religion. That's good enough for God, apparently.

What do you mean by "Very orthodox" and "Fairly orthodox" and which do you believe (I'm guessing Fairly orthodox based on the way you worded it but I'm not going to assume.)

By "very orthodox" I mean that you would be very hard-pressed to find a Muslim who didn't agree. There are some, to be sure (the terrorist lunatics among them), but the vast, vast majority of Muslims would agree with that (or at least should agree if they actually understand the Qur'an).

By "fairly orthodox" I mean it's an acceptable orthodox opinion. A fairly-orthodox opinion (and this is not a technical term) would be one with support from scripture (the Qur'an and to a lesser extent Hadith), and possibly has the backing of respected scholars. However, you could still argue the point; you never know, God may have left it ambiguous to keep our wits sharp.

I personally tend to hold more lenient views; it's just how I was raised.
 
I only read the beginning, but Luke is the genealogy through Mary, Matthew is through Joseph.

Anyway, how do you explain that four books were written, two by people who never met Jesus, all describing the same events, all describing the same man, all saying he rose from the dead, exc.

Or, maybe it was true!!!
There are plenty of versions of Greek mythology that tell the same stories.
 
I only read the beginning, but Luke is the genealogy through Mary, Matthew is through Joseph.

Anyway, how do you explain that four books were written, two by people who never met Jesus, all describing the same events, all describing the same man, all saying he rose from the dead, exc.

Or, maybe it was true!!!

So where's this talk about no contradictions? Obviously it shows it was not inspired by the divine, but passed down stories and we all known the effect of Chinese whispers.

I'm amazed by the fact that someone who's so quick to voice their religious opinion only reads the beginning. It shows you have no care to research about your religion and the validity of it's points and canons when important points are presented right in front of you.

Do you think Jesus will dispise you for not blindly following something full of errors? He must not like intelligent people.
 
I'm pretty sure. I'm not speaking as a Muslim here, by the way, but as a student of international relations; I'm getting my numbers from my prof, who got his numbers from a CIA estimate.



First, I must take exception with the use of the word "Islamist." Islamism is a political movement with roots in Islam. It is quite modern--it started in the '20s and '30s--and most Muslims are not Islamists. Of course, needless to say, all Islamists are Muslims (we hope, anyway, lest my brain explode with the contradiction). I myself am a Muslim but not an Islamist.

Second: Yes and no. The Islamic position towards Judaism and Christianity is that (essentially) they are earlier forms of the One True God's (whether you call him God, YHWH, or Allah is irrelevant) faith that have been changed over time. Whether or not that One True God's faith is perfectly identifiable with Islam (i.e. that Christianity and Judaism originally preached exactly what Islam preaches) is a subject of debate among Muslim religious scholars.

What this means w/r/t your question isn't exactly certain. You could say that they are all forms of the same religion. Alternately, you could say that they are separate religions from one tradition. That tradition as a whole is not considered to be wrong by the vast majority of Muslims. From an Islamic perspective, Christianity is not so much a wrong religion as a different, mostly-right religion. That's good enough for God, apparently.



By "very orthodox" I mean that you would be very hard-pressed to find a Muslim who didn't agree. There are some, to be sure (the terrorist lunatics among them), but the vast, vast majority of Muslims would agree with that (or at least should agree if they actually understand the Qur'an).

By "fairly orthodox" I mean it's an acceptable orthodox opinion. A fairly-orthodox opinion (and this is not a technical term) would be one with support from scripture (the Qur'an and to a lesser extent Hadith), and possibly has the backing of respected scholars. However, you could still argue the point; you never know, God may have left it ambiguous to keep our wits sharp.

I personally tend to hold more lenient views; it's just how I was raised.

About Islamists, I'm not sure why I used the term, I guess I thought they meant the same thing. My apologies.

Just curious, but what does the Koran say on the issue of "People of the Book," and the Christian religion being "Mostly right."

Also, why do the majority of Islamic political leaders support wiping out Israel if Jews are People of the Book?

And, just so you know where I'm coming from, while I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that believing in him as God and repenting of your sins is how you are saved, and I don't believe any man with the exception of Christ is good, since we all have sin, I don't identify people who are Muslims with terrorists anymore than I would say that every Germain in World War II were supportive of Nazism, that is, I wouldn't say it all (I don't know how many did, I'm just saying, living in WWII doesn't make you a Nazi, in the same fashion being a Muslim doesn't make you a terrorist.) However, it seems to me that the majority of Muslim governments are dictatorships that support terrorism, that's why I feel the way I do about Iran. While I'm quite sure the majority of citizens of Iran wouldn't support launching an ICBM at the United States, their government I believe would, or at least, give a small nuke to a terrorist and pretend it was unintentional. I don't believe most Muslims want this to happen, in fact, I KNOW most Muslims do not support terrorism, but I fear in the same way as with Israel, what you yourself said about "People of the Book," proves that the opinions of most Muslims and Muslim Governments are different.

I hope that made sense, even if you didn't agree with me.
 
I only read the beginning, but Luke is the genealogy through Mary, Matthew is through Joseph.

Anyway, how do you explain that four books were written, two by people who never met Jesus, all describing the same events, all describing the same man, all saying he rose from the dead, exc.

Or, maybe it was true!!!

And what about the other gospels that are not connected at all? Such as St. Thomas?
 
About Islamists, I'm not sure why I used the term, I guess I thought they meant the same thing. My apologies.

Easy enough mistake to make. No worries.

Just curious, but what does the Koran say on the issue of "People of the Book," and the Christian religion being "Mostly right."

Well, I can't cite chapter and verse, but I can tell you that these religions must be protected and guaranteed religious freedom in a Muslim society. Sorry I can't be much help; I'm not a religious scholar.

Also, why do the majority of Islamic political leaders support wiping out Israel if Jews are People of the Book?

The issue is entirely political and is mostly restricted to the Arab world+(for now) Iran. Opposition to Israel (both of the kick-them-into-the-sea kind and the c'mon-can't-you-just-toss-the-Palestinians-a-bone kind) is very popular across the Middle East, regardless of other political and religious views. For Arabs it's a matter of nationalist pride: as far as most Arabs are concerned, the Zionists stole Arab land to create their state. Even those of us with more nuanced views of the subject still regard the establishment of Israel to be an extremely shady and sordid affair. In the Arab world, a strong move against Israel is a guaranteed way to gain popularity with the people in the street. All the Arab governments are scared witless of their own people, and they don't like cracking down to keep hold of their power. So when they can, they make some noises about Israel. The opposition--including the Islamist opposition, like Hizballah--plays the same game. Attacking Israel is a very popular move for very good historical reasons that have virtually nothing to do with Islam.

Iran is a special case, because frankly, the Iranian people didn't feel very strongly about the Palestinians until after the Revolution. The situation today is rather different. The cause of the Palestinians has become useful propaganda for the Iranian government, for several reasons. First, because most Palestinians are Muslim, the government gets to paint itself as the supporter of Islamic causes everywhere. This in turn hopefully pulls Iranians towards a more Islamic identity rather than the more secular Persian identity that the Shah had promoted. Second, Israel is probably Iran's top strategic rival, especially now that Iraq has been crippled as a regional power. Israel's formidable air force and nuclear arsenal form the most serious and direct threat to Iranian security. So it makes sense to try and get the people whipped up about Israel. Getting the people angry about an outside issue keeps them from causing trouble at home--this is a big issue in Iran, because a majority of the population was born after the Revolution, and in that time the economic situation in Iran has been consistently terrible. It also makes sense because Israel really is the greatest threat to Iran (as much as we bluster, Iran knows that they're too important for the US to just bomb and not important enough for us to just invade).

And, just so you know where I'm coming from, while I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that believing in him as God and repenting of your sins is how you are saved, and I don't believe any man with the exception of Christ is good, since we all have sin, I don't identify people who are Muslims with terrorists anymore than I would say that every Germain in World War II were supportive of Nazism, that is, I wouldn't say it all (I don't know how many did, I'm just saying, living in WWII doesn't make you a Nazi, in the same fashion being a Muslim doesn't make you a terrorist.) However, it seems to me that the majority of Muslim governments are dictatorships that support terrorism, that's why I feel the way I do about Iran. While I'm quite sure the majority of citizens of Iran wouldn't support launching an ICBM at the United States, their government I believe would, or at least, give a small nuke to a terrorist and pretend it was unintentional. I don't believe most Muslims want this to happen, in fact, I KNOW most Muslims do not support terrorism, but I fear in the same way as with Israel, what you yourself said about "People of the Book," proves that the opinions of most Muslims and Muslim Governments are different.

I hope that made sense, even if you didn't agree with me.

You will be no doubt interested to learn that almost all Muslim governments aren't actually Muslim--they are instead secular. Most of them are dictatorships, but they do not support terrorism--in fact, most terrorist groups were formed to destroy these dictatorships. The people who assassinated Anwar Sadat in 1981 were part of the same group that Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Ladin's Number Two and the brains behind Al Qaeda, got his start in. The people who carry out terrorism against the West are actually trying to knock down their own governments at home, because the United States, and to a lesser extent the European countries, actively back these dictatorial governments, providing them with guns, aid, and plenty of baksheesh. Most terrorist organizations do not have any governmental support at all, because even the governments that would like to see their neighbors suffer a coup or something are too afraid that it would embolden their own Islamist terrorists (and I must emphasize: most Islamists are not terrorists) at home.

There is one significant exception to this rule: Iran. However, Iran doesn't back any organization that attacks Western targets: these groups tend to be radical Sunnis who hate Shiite Iran almost as much as they hate the West. Instead, Iran backs movements that mix political Islam with nationalism: Hamas and Hizballah are the most notable. Both started as (and Hamas still is) resistance movements against Israeli occupation (for Hamas, the Occupied Territories, for Hizballah, Lebanon). These organizations are used as tools of foreign and domestic policy: to keep Israel off balance and distracted (thus keeping its planes safely far away from Iran) and to keep the people of Iran distracted (thus keeping them from trying another revolution). Syria theoretically gets into this game, too, but the Syrians are working for the Iranians and can be safely ignored.
 
Easy enough mistake to make. No worries.



Well, I can't cite chapter and verse, but I can tell you that these religions must be protected and guaranteed religious freedom in a Muslim society. Sorry I can't be much help; I'm not a religious scholar.



The issue is entirely political and is mostly restricted to the Arab world+(for now) Iran. Opposition to Israel (both of the kick-them-into-the-sea kind and the c'mon-can't-you-just-toss-the-Palestinians-a-bone kind) is very popular across the Middle East, regardless of other political and religious views. For Arabs it's a matter of nationalist pride: as far as most Arabs are concerned, the Zionists stole Arab land to create their state. Even those of us with more nuanced views of the subject still regard the establishment of Israel to be an extremely shady and sordid affair. In the Arab world, a strong move against Israel is a guaranteed way to gain popularity with the people in the street. All the Arab governments are scared witless of their own people, and they don't like cracking down to keep hold of their power. So when they can, they make some noises about Israel. The opposition--including the Islamist opposition, like Hizballah--plays the same game. Attacking Israel is a very popular move for very good historical reasons that have virtually nothing to do with Islam.

Iran is a special case, because frankly, the Iranian people didn't feel very strongly about the Palestinians until after the Revolution. The situation today is rather different. The cause of the Palestinians has become useful propaganda for the Iranian government, for several reasons. First, because most Palestinians are Muslim, the government gets to paint itself as the supporter of Islamic causes everywhere. This in turn hopefully pulls Iranians towards a more Islamic identity rather than the more secular Persian identity that the Shah had promoted. Second, Israel is probably Iran's top strategic rival, especially now that Iraq has been crippled as a regional power. Israel's formidable air force and nuclear arsenal form the most serious and direct threat to Iranian security. So it makes sense to try and get the people whipped up about Israel. Getting the people angry about an outside issue keeps them from causing trouble at home--this is a big issue in Iran, because a majority of the population was born after the Revolution, and in that time the economic situation in Iran has been consistently terrible. It also makes sense because Israel really is the greatest threat to Iran (as much as we bluster, Iran knows that they're too important for the US to just bomb and not important enough for us to just invade).



You will be no doubt interested to learn that almost all Muslim governments aren't actually Muslim--they are instead secular. Most of them are dictatorships, but they do not support terrorism--in fact, most terrorist groups were formed to destroy these dictatorships. The people who assassinated Anwar Sadat in 1981 were part of the same group that Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Ladin's Number Two and the brains behind Al Qaeda, got his start in. The people who carry out terrorism against the West are actually trying to knock down their own governments at home, because the United States, and to a lesser extent the European countries, actively back these dictatorial governments, providing them with guns, aid, and plenty of baksheesh. Most terrorist organizations do not have any governmental support at all, because even the governments that would like to see their neighbors suffer a coup or something are too afraid that it would embolden their own Islamist terrorists (and I must emphasize: most Islamists are not terrorists) at home.

There is one significant exception to this rule: Iran. However, Iran doesn't back any organization that attacks Western targets: these groups tend to be radical Sunnis who hate Shiite Iran almost as much as they hate the West. Instead, Iran backs movements that mix political Islam with nationalism: Hamas and Hizballah are the most notable. Both started as (and Hamas still is) resistance movements against Israeli occupation (for Hamas, the Occupied Territories, for Hizballah, Lebanon). These organizations are used as tools of foreign and domestic policy: to keep Israel off balance and distracted (thus keeping its planes safely far away from Iran) and to keep the people of Iran distracted (thus keeping them from trying another revolution). Syria theoretically gets into this game, too, but the Syrians are working for the Iranians and can be safely ignored.

Well, I know for a fact in Iraq and Iran Christians and Jews do not get religious freedom.

First of all, can you explain to me what the difference between Sunnis and Shiites is?

Also, while these people bomb Israel, are you supporting just letting them?
 
Well, I know for a fact in Iraq and Iran Christians and Jews do not get religious freedom.

Um...yes and no. There's still a sizable community of Jews in Iran and there are no laws keeping them from following all of their customs. Ditto for the Armenians and other Christian groups in the country. Of course, there is social pressure on them, but that's the usual bigotry you get when your neighbor is different from you. It happens in every society, not just regardless but despite of religion.

The same can be said of Iraq, except that there are fewer Jews, and the fact that there's a freakin' war on makes the situation rather more...complicated.

First of all, can you explain to me what the difference between Sunnis and Shiites is?

It's a very, very long story. I'll try to nutshell it for you. It started out as a succession dispute: the people who eventually became the Sunnis thought that the successor (Khalifah or Caliph) of the Prophet should be left to the elders of the community, whereas Shiites thought that Muhammad had left the job to the line of his son-in-law Ali. After a couple of centuries, the succession dispute had gotten all kinds of other doctrinal stuff added on that I couldn't even begin to describe to you here. I might recommend some books if I have the time.

Also, while these people bomb Israel, are you supporting just letting them?

No, but there are better ways of handling the situation. Physical attacks are likely to make the situation worse by making martyrs and heroes out of the Iranian regime and its allies. Far better to settle things through negotiation; that's the only way the Iranians don't win.
 
Um...yes and no. There's still a sizable community of Jews in Iran and there are no laws keeping them from following all of their customs. Ditto for the Armenians and other Christian groups in the country. Of course, there is social pressure on them, but that's the usual bigotry you get when your neighbor is different from you. It happens in every society, not just regardless but despite of religion.

The same can be said of Iraq, except that there are fewer Jews, and the fact that there's a freakin' war on makes the situation rather more...complicated.



It's a very, very long story. I'll try to nutshell it for you. It started out as a succession dispute: the people who eventually became the Sunnis thought that the successor (Khalifah or Caliph) of the Prophet should be left to the elders of the community, whereas Shiites thought that Muhammad had left the job to the line of his son-in-law Ali. After a couple of centuries, the succession dispute had gotten all kinds of other doctrinal stuff added on that I couldn't even begin to describe to you here. I might recommend some books if I have the time.



No, but there are better ways of handling the situation. Physical attacks are likely to make the situation worse by making martyrs and heroes out of the Iranian regime and its allies. Far better to settle things through negotiation; that's the only way the Iranians don't win.

I'm not talking about social pressure, I doubt you've read the modern edition of Foxe's book of martyrs since you're a Muslim, but in the back there are a lot of true stories about how the governments of Iraq and Iran have persecuted Christians.

As for the Iranians winning, I still don't support doing it, but, if we nuked Iran into the ground, how would Iran win. Granted, my goal in the whole thing would be to free them and stop them from getting nukes, so I'd only be succeeding in half my goal, not to mention killing a lot more people then necessary and making the world mad at me, but, how would Iran win in this?

How would nuking Iran make Iran win?

I don't get it.
 
I'm not talking about social pressure, I doubt you've read the modern edition of Foxe's book of martyrs since you're a Muslim, but in the back there are a lot of true stories about how the governments of Iraq and Iran have persecuted Christians.

I'm aware of that, actually. But these are not supposed to be happening under Iranian and Iraqi law. The government is breaking its own rules here, and is rightly deplored for it. The Jews and Christian groups are guaranteed representation in the Iranian parliament (one seat for the Jews, one for the Chaldean Catholics, and two for the Armenians). This persecution represents simple bigotry, no more.

As for the Iranians winning, I still don't support doing it, but, if we nuked Iran into the ground, how would Iran win. Granted, my goal in the whole thing would be to free them and stop them from getting nukes, so I'd only be succeeding in half my goal, not to mention killing a lot more people then necessary and making the world mad at me, but, how would Iran win in this?

How would nuking Iran make Iran win?

I don't get it.

It's a question of martyrdom. Nuking Iran is one of the few things more or less guaranteed to start revolutions in all countries allied to us. The Iranian regime is rather popular with the Arabs (in particular) because it has the strength to stand up to the United States. If the regime survives the attack, then it will be more popular than ever. If it doesn't, the Arabs (at minimum) will probably be shocked for a while, but then turn out into the streets in protest. A nuclear attack is a very dramatic gesture, and people in developing countries tend to respond dramatically. So perhaps Iran doesn't win, but we certainly lose. I'm sure that Khamenei and Ahmedinejad would be laughing from their graves.
 
I'm aware of that, actually. But these are not supposed to be happening under Iranian and Iraqi law. The government is breaking its own rules here, and is rightly deplored for it. The Jews and Christian groups are guaranteed representation in the Iranian parliament (one seat for the Jews, one for the Chaldean Catholics, and two for the Armenians). This persecution represents simple bigotry, no more.



It's a question of martyrdom. Nuking Iran is one of the few things more or less guaranteed to start revolutions in all countries allied to us. The Iranian regime is rather popular with the Arabs (in particular) because it has the strength to stand up to the United States. If the regime survives the attack, then it will be more popular than ever. If it doesn't, the Arabs (at minimum) will probably be shocked for a while, but then turn out into the streets in protest. A nuclear attack is a very dramatic gesture, and people in developing countries tend to respond dramatically. So perhaps Iran doesn't win, but we certainly lose. I'm sure that Khamenei and Ahmedinejad would be laughing from their graves.

Just for the record, I don't support nuking Iran. I support invasion. Of course, if we brought 50%+ of our army, we would win quick, so we would have to finish Iraq off first.

Where do you get the idea Iran can stand with the US. My issue with the war isn't that we're fighting it, but that we haven't finished the job already, I mean, we have like 90% of our army at home. IIRC.

Yep, just checked Wikipedia, we have over 1,000,000 troops in the US and less than 150,000 in Iraq.

What do you think should be done about the persecution then? Do you support letting it go? If not, what measures would you take if you were president?
 
Invading Iran or any other nation in Asia is silly. Any such war will only run up our deficit even more. If we want to take down Iran just bomb their oil infrastructure and electricity generating plants. Of course, we should be prepared to pay $8.00 a gallon for gasoline....
 
Just for the record, I don't support nuking Iran. I support invasion. Of course, if we brought 50%+ of our army, we would win quick, so we would have to finish Iraq off first.

Most of Iran's land is mountainous. Even if we defeat Iran's sizable military and overthrow their government, I predict that we'd get partisan resistance and end up in a situation similar to Afghanistan.

Where do you get the idea Iran can stand with the US. My issue with the war isn't that we're fighting it, but that we haven't finished the job already, I mean, we have like 90% of our army at home. IIRC.

The fact that they are able to make threats and develop nuclear technology with little more than sanctions from the US. Once again, sizable military, we would certainly not be welcomed as liberators. An invasion would be stupid, and bombing has been proven time and again to be unsuccessful in unconventional wars.

Yep, just checked Wikipedia, we have over 1,000,000 troops in the US and less than 150,000 in Iraq.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html

They would have homefield advantage, reside in mountainous terrain, have a decent military, and can put a heck of a lot of guys on the field. I don't think they'd go down quite as easily as you think they would.

What do you think should be done about the persecution then? Do you support letting it go? If not, what measures would you take if you were president?

There's not much you can do about persecution except put people on trial. Remember, we used to have similar problems with persecution (and still do, to an extent) not that long ago.
 
Domination it seems like you missed my post (number #66 on this thread), I was awaiting your rebuttal ;).

Swerving back to the main topic, you do realise Iran has not got ICBMs, and couldn't nuke America. You don't need to invade them. Added to that the world opinion of America would plummet to new low depths. Plus I doubt you could successfully invade them.
 
I honestly have no idea what to do with this situation. I don't believe that the United States could afford to mount an invasion of Iran. I also have a tremendous aversion to using nuclear weapons against anyone, but on the other hand, I have tremendous fear of what will happen with nuclear weapons in the hands of the Iranian Gov't.
 
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