I don't agree with them but....

We very much need to be successful, here, at pursuading Iran to cease development of nuclear weapons utilizing diplomacy rather than military force, but if it should come to that, it is imperative that we use force to stop them. Many other nations would proceed to develop them in absence of resolution by the nations of the world to stop Iran.
 
We very much need to be successful, here, at pursuading Iran to cease development of nuclear weapons utilizing diplomacy rather than military force, but if it should come to that, it is imperative that we use force to stop them. Many other nations would proceed to develop them in absence of resolution by the nations of the world to stop Iran.

Actually, Iran developing nuclear weapons could be one of the best things for the United States in Middle East foreign policy.

It sets up a clear mini-Cold War in the region that would pull the US allies more closely together. At the moment, there are three distinct US allies in the Asian Middle East (i.e. everything east of Egypt): there's Israel, there's Iraq, and there's the Gulf states. None of these trusts the other. The only things that they have in common is a very concrete indebtedness to the United States and a vague feeling of being threatened by Iran. However, the relationship between Iraq and Iran is complicated, and the Gulf states (including Saudi Arabia) will avoid any contact with Israel if they can help it.

An Iranian bomb, however, is equally threatening to all three. To Israel, it represents the start of Iran putting itself on an equal footing with Israel. This Israel is afraid to allow, for reasons that ought to be obvious. To Iraq, it represents Iran trying to spread its tendrils even further, which even the most pro-Tehran Iraqi politicians don't want to happen. And for the Gulf states, it is a threat, plain and simple.

If Iran were to get a bomb, it would suddenly become much easier to convince Israel, Iraq, and the Gulf States (that's Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, the UAE, and Oman) to work together. It wouldn't necessarily have to be a formal arrangement, but you would see a much more organized and responsive front against Iran were Iran to get a bomb. Additionally, Pakistan would have yet another reason to back us in Afghanistan (Iran has been annoying Pakistan there for ages). The only real problem is that it would make India's balancing act more difficult: traditionally, India and Iran have been quite friendly, but it is obvious that Prime Minister Singh is attempting to pursue an alliance with the United States, and it is similarly obvious that one of the best long-term strategies for the United States is to pursue an alliance with India.
 
There's no need to actually invade Iran - or Nuke it. Should Iran actually develop the atomic bomb and threaten its' neighbors, there is an alternate method.

The US has a squadron of B2 stealth bombers. These planes are virtually unstoppable given Iran's older SAM technology. We've been mapping out their nuclear facilities for years now, and a surgical strike could destroy their nuclear facilities, infrastructure, and weapons storage.

The downside is well-known middle eastern practice of going off at a tangent and attacking innocent bystanders. Since they couldn't counter attack America, they're likely to attack some other nearby middle eastern victim. The results have to overbalance the consequences.

In any case, President Obama is not the kind of man to take such a risk.

I think that is a possible solution.

Actually, Iran developing nuclear weapons could be one of the best things for the United States in Middle East foreign policy.

It sets up a clear mini-Cold War in the region that would pull the US allies more closely together. At the moment, there are three distinct US allies in the Asian Middle East (i.e. everything east of Egypt): there's Israel, there's Iraq, and there's the Gulf states. None of these trusts the other. The only things that they have in common is a very concrete indebtedness to the United States and a vague feeling of being threatened by Iran. However, the relationship between Iraq and Iran is complicated, and the Gulf states (including Saudi Arabia) will avoid any contact with Israel if they can help it.

An Iranian bomb, however, is equally threatening to all three. To Israel, it represents the start of Iran putting itself on an equal footing with Israel. This Israel is afraid to allow, for reasons that ought to be obvious. To Iraq, it represents Iran trying to spread its tendrils even further, which even the most pro-Tehran Iraqi politicians don't want to happen. And for the Gulf states, it is a threat, plain and simple.

If Iran were to get a bomb, it would suddenly become much easier to convince Israel, Iraq, and the Gulf States (that's Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, the UAE, and Oman) to work together. It wouldn't necessarily have to be a formal arrangement, but you would see a much more organized and responsive front against Iran were Iran to get a bomb. Additionally, Pakistan would have yet another reason to back us in Afghanistan (Iran has been annoying Pakistan there for ages). The only real problem is that it would make India's balancing act more difficult: traditionally, India and Iran have been quite friendly, but it is obvious that Prime Minister Singh is attempting to pursue an alliance with the United States, and it is similarly obvious that one of the best long-term strategies for the United States is to pursue an alliance with India.

Don't think Iran is as smart as you give them credit. Remember, radical Muslims believe that they are getting rewards in heaven for killing us.
 
That freerepublic link is a gem. It's full of hilariously ******** comments like this:

bmwcyle said:
You are exactly right except most of the entire world will have many casualties. And Russia and China thinks they are safe. Wait until this "little Hitler"conquers most of Europe. Hitler wanted the world and if they had the bomb, nothing could stop them. This time the bomb will be had by all, and it won't take much. Funny how stupid most of the world is!

:lol:

Anyway, but seriously, Iran is a third world country whose arsenal and economy are but a tiny fraction of what the USSR wielded. Yet, not even the USSR, which was equally, if not more totalitarian than the Tehran regime, dared to attack the West and face nuclear annihilation. Why would Iran be any keener on doing that? Iran is far weaker than the threats of the past. Remember, also, that Iran is utterly surrounded by US armed forces and would be destroyed virtually instantly if it were to launch a nuke on Israel. So I am not frightened in the slightest by a prospect of a nuclear armed Iran; on the contrary, it might bring some stability to the region.

If we stop threatening Iran with war, they'll have less incentive to pursue the development of nukes.
 
Also, I admire Churchill's courage, but he had to have believed America would come in to help him at some point, and if we hadn't, Britain would be Nazi (So would we by now, but, them first) I think they owe us everything


Britain owes the USA nothing.

Remember the USA chose to remain neutral in WW2.

The USA only entered WW2 because the Japanese sneak attacked Pearl Harbour
and Hitller declared war on the USA in the mistaken expectation that the "honorable" Japanese would likewise declare war on the USSR and invade Siberia.
 
Don't think Iran is as smart as you give them credit. Remember, radical Muslims believe that they are getting rewards in heaven for killing us.

Simply because they believe that they're going to some higher reward doesn't make them stupid.

If there is one thing that everyone in the foreign-policy community agrees on, it is the fact that Iran's foreign policy is frightfully rational. The Iranian government knows what it wants: it wants to keep its independence from the Great Powers, it wants to have a say in how the Middle East is managed (preferably becoming manager itself), and it wants to stay in power at home. Any Iranian action or policy is easily connected to one of these three goals. This is not just my opinion; this is as close to a verifiable fact about this issue as we can get.

Britain owes the USA nothing.

Remember the USA chose to remain neutral in WW2.

The USA only entered WW2 because the Japanese sneak attacked Pearl Harbour
and Hitller declared war on the USA in the mistaken expectation that the "honorable" Japanese would likewise declare war on the USSR and invade Siberia.

Oh, not this crap again...

To summarize: FDR wanted in earlier, but the American people hadn't wised up to the fact that the USA was a Great Power yet. First rule of democratic politics, no matter how stupid your people are being, do not go to war against their will. FDR managed to continue providing supplies to Britain between 1939 and 1942. And the Navy engaged in an assortment of shady operations in the Atlantic prior to the formal entry of the United States into the war.
 
FDR wanted in earlier,

Evidence??


FDR managed to continue providing supplies
to Britain between 1939 and 1942.


To start with the official US policy was an arms embargo on both sides.

As the British navy could blockade surface ships from Germany more easily than the Germans submarines could blockade surface ships from Britain; this benefited Germany more than Britain. FDR was concerned that Britain would lose (Kennedy's Dad was ambassador in Britain) and that the Germans would control Europe, Britain, North Africa and the middle east, a geo-political threat to the USA. So he changed the rules to enable Britain to buy US supplies to keep Britain fighting. That way the USA accreted British gold, while the two old world powers were weakening themselves without the USA having to fight at all. And supplies were provided to Canada not Britain. (to Bedford Basin to be precise).


And the Navy engaged in an assortment of shady operations in the
Atlantic prior to the formal entry of the United States into the war.

The US Navy largely stayed on the West side of the Atlantic as instructed,
to avoid getting into WW2 by accident. A few brave commanders disobeyed
cowardly political orders to run away from underwater pirates off the east coast.
But that wasn't because they wanted to help Britain, the US admiralty simply were
not prepared to de facto recognise German ownership of the Western atlantic.

And FDR was only too happy to see Joe Stalin behind Churchill's back in
Tehran and discuss the future of Britain's Indian Empire.
 
If we stop threatening Iran with war, they'll have less incentive to pursue the development of nukes.
If more people realized this, nuclear proliferation might be curbed.
 
Anyway, but seriously, Iran is a third world country whose arsenal and economy are but a tiny fraction of what the USSR wielded. Yet, not even the USSR, which was equally, if not more totalitarian than the Tehran regime, dared to attack the West and face nuclear annihilation. Why would Iran be any keener on doing that? Iran is far weaker than the threats of the past. Remember, also, that Iran is utterly surrounded by US armed forces and would be destroyed virtually instantly if it were to launch a nuke on Israel. So I am not frightened in the slightest by a prospect of a nuclear armed Iran; on the contrary, it might bring some stability to the region.

If we stop threatening Iran with war, they'll have less incentive to pursue the development of nukes.

If more people realized this, nuclear proliferation might be curbed.

In my opinion, the problem with Iran getting the atomic bomb is that they are not a rational, modern government. They might actually use their bomb against their perceived enemies. I think some of you are thinking like modern westerners - "Hey, we all want peace, right?" It's like suicide bombers writ large, a radical shia Muslim regime might accept the consequences of counter-attack if they can just destroy their blood enemy, Israel.

Remember, these folks don't think like us. What we regard as common sense is totally alien to them.
 
In my opinion, the problem with Iran getting the atomic bomb is that they are not a rational, modern government. They might actually use their bomb against their perceived enemies. I think some of you are thinking like modern westerners - "Hey, we all want peace, right?" It's like suicide bombers writ large, a radical shia Muslim regime might accept the consequences of counter-attack if they can just destroy their blood enemy, Israel.

Remember, these folks don't think like us. What we regard as common sense is totally alien to them.

Really? They have no common sense? What makes you say that?
 
How long of an occupation would it take not only to ensure the transition to a democratic government, but to ensure that democratic government doesn't end up electing a party that hates Israel and wants Iran to have nukes, getting you back where you started?

At the end of the day, you may be able to delay Iran getting a nuke, but all that achieves is buy you a few years, and make them hate you all the more when they finally get it.

Unless, of course, you kill them all. Which would work, but be so thorougly monstrous that America would become a great pariah about five seconds after.
 
Simply because they believe that they're going to some higher reward doesn't make them stupid.

If there is one thing that everyone in the foreign-policy community agrees on, it is the fact that Iran's foreign policy is frightfully rational. The Iranian government knows what it wants: it wants to keep its independence from the Great Powers, it wants to have a say in how the Middle East is managed (preferably becoming manager itself), and it wants to stay in power at home. Any Iranian action or policy is easily connected to one of these three goals. This is not just my opinion; this is as close to a verifiable fact about this issue as we can get.



Oh, not this crap again...

To summarize: FDR wanted in earlier, but the American people hadn't wised up to the fact that the USA was a Great Power yet. First rule of democratic politics, no matter how stupid your people are being, do not go to war against their will. FDR managed to continue providing supplies to Britain between 1939 and 1942. And the Navy engaged in an assortment of shady operations in the Atlantic prior to the formal entry of the United States into the war.

I may be dumb in your eyes, but I would've went to war anyway. This was actually Congress, not the people, that was the issue. Just do what Bush did, send your army to Europe, even if you're not officially at war.
 
In my opinion, the problem with Iran getting the atomic bomb is that they are not a rational, modern government. They might actually use their bomb against their perceived enemies. I think some of you are thinking like modern westerners - "Hey, we all want peace, right?" It's like suicide bombers writ large, a radical shia Muslim regime might accept the consequences of counter-attack if they can just destroy their blood enemy, Israel.

Remember, these folks don't think like us. What we regard as common sense is totally alien to them.

On the contrary. The Iranian regime is avoiding open war because it fought a brutal war with Iraq couple of decades ago. There is no reason to presume that the current Iranian regime has no sense of self-preservation: the truth is that the current Iranian regime, whatever its domestic crimes, has never declared open war on any one, ever. It has only defended itself. The same cannot be said of Israel or the USA.
 
I may be dumb in your eyes, but I would've went to war anyway. This was actually Congress, not the people, that was the issue. Just do what Bush did, send your army to Europe, even if you're not officially at war.
Just for the show:
-The people and the Congress opposed a war.
-This is why FDR was president and you will not be president.
-Bush had the support of a majority of the population
-The invasion of the Iraq 2003 is not comparable to an invasion of Nazi-Germany. Not at all.
 
I may be dumb in your eyes, but I would've went to war anyway. This was actually Congress, not the people, that was the issue. Just do what Bush did, send your army to Europe, even if you're not officially at war.

Let's not have this discussion here (it's not the place for it), but I wouldn't call you dumb. All I'll say is that were you President in, say, 1940 and actually done that, I would have applauded you for your bravery and idealism, and would desperately hope that the Japanese still attacked Pearl Harbor before the next election.

In my opinion, the problem with Iran getting the atomic bomb is that they are not a rational, modern government. They might actually use their bomb against their perceived enemies. I think some of you are thinking like modern westerners - "Hey, we all want peace, right?" It's like suicide bombers writ large, a radical shia Muslim regime might accept the consequences of counter-attack if they can just destroy their blood enemy, Israel.

Remember, these folks don't think like us. What we regard as common sense is totally alien to them.

First, you are empirically wrong. The Iranians are supremely modern and rational, and anyone who has studied their regime in detail, regardless of their national origin or political inclination, agrees with this assessment. These men wish to stay in power, and they do not wish to rule over a nuclear wasteland. Additionally, actually nuking Israel forces them to give up a very useful whipping boy for when they're in trouble at home. When the Iranian government feels it needs to distract the populace from human rights abuses, high inflation, high unemployment, and brain drain at home, they often step up the rhetoric condemning Zionism and Israel and all that jazz. While it's not the only such enemy (the United States serves in a pinch), it is the best external enemy for the purpose: it's being restrained by the United States, it's nearby, its atrocities (in Iranian eyes) are obvious and numerous, and so on. Antagonizing Israel doesn't really hurt their prospects of getting concessions out of the West, either (unlike a serious agitprop campaign against the US) How can you agitate against Israel if Israel isn't there any more? Israel is a far more useful enemy alive than dead. (Incidentally, the dynamic is quite similar with regard to Iran for a right-wing government of Israel).

Second, the Iranians may or may not want peace. But wanting peace is irrelevant. Time and time again, they have shown that they want security, which is quite another matter. They want (as I said) to continue governing the country, and they want to further their country's interests (as they see them). They want not to be attacked and they want to stay in power. More broadly, they would like to take on the role of regional hegemon, a position that would guarantee their security more or less permanently. A nuclear weapons program advances all three objectives: the program is popular among everyday Iranians, a bomb would be an effective deterrent (they calculate), and having nuclear capacity would make them much more credible regional leaders.

Beyond that, there is no reason to believe that anything else has entered into their calculations; they have thus far proven themselves to be consummate and highly pragmatic geopolitical chess-players. When the US invaded Afghanistan in 2001, the Iranians actively helped us out, funneling arms and money from the West to the Northern Alliance (the Taliban were a tremendous nuisance to Iran, as they were backed by the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence and rabidly anti-Shiite to boot). At the Bonn Conference that year, Iran secured the support of several groups and tribes, including the influential Hazaras, for the American choice for interim President, Hamid Karzai; a stable Afghanistan was in Iran's interest at the time. However, after the US invasion of Iraq, Iran started playing a double game to keep the US semi-bogged-down in both places (thus ensuring that the US would not be a threat to Iranian security for the time being), by simultaneously supplying insurgents (including the hated Taliban) but also providing real support to the new American-backed regimes in both countries. Tehran, significantly has actively disavowed direct interference in Iraqi politics (although it could easily do so), and has tacitly allowed Ayatollah Ali Sistani to take the lead in Iraqi Shiite politics. Sistani has been quite insistent that while Shiite politicians should certainly turn to their faith for guidance on political matters, the clergy should keep out of politics--not exactly what the Iranians want to hear.
 
wait a minuet Iran doesn't have any nuclear weapons, all america is doing is getting on it high horse hypocrite and telling Iran it can't have nuclear weapons when all it is doing is looking into building nuclear power stations
 
Also, I admire Churchill's courage, but he had to have believed America would come in to help him at some point, and if we hadn't, Britain would be Nazi (So would we by now, but, them first) I think they owe us everything
Aren't you forgetting some big-ass communist country who also had a thing or two to do with defeating the Nazis? I'll give you a hint, they reached Berlin before you guys did.
 
this means communism is superior
 
Really? They have no common sense? What makes you say that?

I didn't say they had no common sense - rather that what we westerners regard as good sense, sound judgement, is different over there. They may make a political calculation, biased by hatred, that they could destroy Israel, and that a weak leader like Barrack Obama will respond with massive retaliatory sanctions.
 
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