I don't agree with them but....

[RedRalph]

I didn't say they had no common sense - rather that what we westerners regard as good sense, sound judgement, is different over there. They may make a political calculation, biased by hatred, that they could destroy Israel, and that a weak leader like Barrack Obama will respond with massive retaliatory sanctions.

You've lost me here completely. People 'over there' (where exactly) have a differtent idea of good judgement than 'westerners'? They have calculated that they could destroy Israel and only get sanctions in retaliation?

 

[Nobody]

If Iran (or any other country) had a nuke, and america (or any other country) new for certain Iran was about to use a nuke on america or one of its allies, and they only way to stop them was to nuke first. Then i support the nuking of Iran.

You can also replace nuke with chemical or biological weapons.

And if they happen to get one of the weapons off, and they nuke america or its allies. Then i support nuking of iran.

 

[Leoreth]

I like it how the argumentation always boils down to "Oh my god they have nukes and could nuke someone without provocation, so we should go and nuke them without provocation".

Bonus points for "we are AMERICA and obviously have the right to do this".

 

[Lockesdonkey]

I didn't say they had no common sense - rather that what we westerners regard as good sense, sound judgement, is different over there. They may make a political calculation, biased by hatred, that they could destroy Israel, and that a weak leader like Barrack Obama will respond with massive retaliatory sanctions.

Um, no.

First, most of them don't hate Israel rabidly. They play up that angle for the street. Most Iranian senior leaders are quite willing to work with Israel when it suits them. It just hasn't suited them lately. To be sure, they hardly like Israel. But the relationship between the two countries is rather like that between the US and the Soviet Union circa 1970: antagonistic and ideologically opposed, but they've grown comfortable with one another. Each finds the other to be a useful scapegoat/distraction for the local populace. Israel and Iran exist in a kind of weird symbiosis, as they (oddly) have some common interests (even as Iran backs Hamas): neither country wants any of the Arab states to get too powerful, both countries want a stable Iraq (neither wants another Saddam), and so on.

In any case, why do you say "biased by hatred?" Whom do they hate, why do they hate them, and how do you know that the hatred is really as all-consuming and poisonous as you claim?

Second, they do not view Barack Obama as weak. In fact, they view him as downright sneaky. Bush would likely have tried to support the Green Revolution last year. If he had done so, that would have been the end of the Green movement right there: Iranians are a very proud people, and if it turns out that a group--any group--has American backing, any popular support it has will disappear in an instant (Iranians still remember the '53 coup). Obama stayed out of it, and to this day the Greens still are getting together every few days and making noise and generally being a nuisance for the government. Similarly, the United States' positions on Iran have been very carefully worded to praise the Iran people while still attacking specific Iranian leaders. This makes the US look better to the Iranian street (although its name is still more or less mud--it's shinier mud, one supposes) and keeps up resentment towards the government. Obama has exhibited an incredibly deep understanding of Iran (or perhaps it's just his advisors), and thus far he's gotten far more out of them than Bush ever has (for instance, that Brazilian-mediation deal was basically prompted by US pressure).

 

[nonconformist]

In my opinion, the problem with Iran getting the atomic bomb is that they are not a rational, modern government. They might actually use their bomb against their perceived enemies. I think some of you are thinking like modern westerners - "Hey, we all want peace, right?" It's like suicide bombers writ large, a radical shia Muslim regime might accept the consequences of counter-attack if they can just destroy their blood enemy, Israel.

Remember, these folks don't think like us. What we regard as common sense is totally alien to them.

What right do you have to make any judgement upon a people, or indeed a country, especially as an American?

The Iranians are bloody intelligent people, and frankly, their system of government is probably about as democratic as America's; in both, your rulers are meticulously vetted and purged to leave only those most loyal and most dangerous; the only difference is, at least the Iranians are clever enough to realise it, while your folks, living in their Banana Empire, spout off inane crap about "freedom", "liberty" and such, all while living under shackles at least as demented as the Iranians.

You think Ahmadenijad and co. are absolutely insane, and would risk being nuked themselves for the sake of killing some Israelis? You think the Iranian people would go for it?

Let me tell you a secret, my friend.
We don't fear the Iranians in Europe; we fear you.

We fear your evangelical leaders, who will get us all blown to Hell, because they believe in the Rapture, and your lord Jesus Christ will come down, and magically spirit you all up in the sky, as it turns to flame, and the infidel Muslims melt from the thermonuclear weapons your president has fired, with one hand on his
Bible.

We fear you as the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons against human beings, that creates, every year, more new and horrifying ways to kill people, melt their skin off, leave them convusling and retching their own guts out in the name of "liberty" and "justice" and "the dollar".

We fear you because your interests are completely your own, you don't understand the concept of community, society, of not screwing other people over cos you can make a quicmk buck out of it; because your the country that has wrought the most death and destruction, and misery and evil upon this earth.

If there was any justice, Americans would not even be allowed to have rocks to throw, let alone nuclear weapons.

 

[Leoreth]

Wow, THAT was a rant.

And while I don't agree with it, it raises the important questions why

a.) The USA are the only country to be allowed to possess nuclear weapons.
b.) The USA can decide who is allowed to have nuclear weapons and who isn't (everyone else?)

Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not supporting Iranian ambitions for the nuke. But that's because I believe NO country should be trusted with nukes, no matter how often it has "freedom" written on its forehead.

 

[useless]

the american believes in liberty, freedom and compassion ONLY when it suits him, not others

 

[useless]

and they turn a blind eye if theres money involved and when ever someone objects, its normally the most pig ignorant hypocrites that come out and scream "SOCIALISM!" drowning the truth and any hopes of discussion (hint saudi arabia lolz) america is the global equivalent of a whore, selling herself whilst conveniently forgetting her beliefs, ideals and views, ironically she is also the first to criticise others for their "lack of human rights and morals" especially given that is not a progressive country; its controlled by religious lunatics and idiots who care more about money then they do for a member of their own "group" Boot straps guys Boot straps!

 

[bhsup]

Let me tell you a secret, my friend.
We don't fear the Iranians in Europe; we fear you.

Then I respectfully submit that you are in error.

Moderator Action: Your editing was 20 minutes after it was reported so we have the original on file.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Leoreth]

Oh, insulting people who don't agree with them. I always recognize the high arts of American diplomacy when I see them

 

[Princeps]

The Iranians are bloody intelligent people, and frankly, their system of government is probably about as democratic as America's; in both, your rulers are meticulously vetted and purged to leave only those most loyal and most dangerous; the only difference is, at least the Iranians are clever enough to realise it, while your folks, living in their Banana Empire, spout off inane crap about "freedom", "liberty" and such, all while living under shackles at least as demented as the Iranians.

Its unfair to compare US government, whatever its flaws, to the regime that rules over Iran. At least Americans are not massacred on the streets and they can in theory vote for any one that represents their views.

 

[bhsup]

Just calling it like I see it. If anyone thinks the USA is a threat to Europe but Iran isn't, that's sufficient cause to have them institutionalized so they cannot harm others.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Wow, THAT was a rant.

And while I don't agree with it, it raises the important questions why

a.) The USA are the only country to be allowed to possess nuclear weapons.
b.) The USA can decide who is allowed to have nuclear weapons and who isn't (everyone else?)

Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely not supporting Iranian ambitions for the nuke. But that's because I believe NO country should be trusted with nukes, no matter how often it has "freedom" written on its forehead.

The Short Answer: We got them first, and if we wanted to, we could've kept the monopoly, anyone who builds one gets nuked (I think this would be a stupid way to handle foreign policy, but it would've held the nuke monopoly a bit.)

The Long Answer: It's about rationality. First off, I don't think we should've let the Soviets live in their communist empire for any longer than the Nazis were a threat. I think we would've saved a lot of people by a well placed Atom Bomb in Moscow in 1945. However, at least they would never nuke us because of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction.) Iranian government long to be martyrs for Allah, if we have to make martyrs of them, I'd much rather take the first shot and not lose American lives.

 

[useless]

Then you're a ing ******.

freedom isnt free! way to show your true colours! we're tired of america, that declining, obsolete giant bossing us about

 

[Grimz101]

I like it how the argumentation always boils down to "Oh my god they have nukes and could nuke someone without provocation, so we should go and nuke them without provocation".

Bonus points for "we are AMERICA and obviously have the right to do this".

Can I please signature this ?

 

[nonconformist]

The Long Answer: It's about rationality. First off, I don't think we should've let the Soviets live in their communist empire for any longer than the Nazis were a threat. I think we would've saved a lot of people by a well placed Atom Bomb in Moscow in 1945

Yeah, nice one. You'd have gotten into a hundred year war in which every single one of your GIs would end up dead as millions of patriotic Soviets flooded Europe in a rage of anger.

Iranian government long to be martyrs for Allah,

Yeah, you get your news from the Onion, right?

if we have to make martyrs of them, I'd much rather take the first shot and not lose American lives.

If America were ever to attack Iran as a sovereign weapon, using nuclear or other such weapons, based on no a priori cause, you'd be facing a Spanish civil war all over again.

How many Arabs, or even South Americans and Europeans would stand for it? There would be international brigades whose sole goal weould be to reduce America to a pitiful state.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Yeah, nice one. You'd have gotten into a hundred year war in which every single one of your GIs would end up dead as millions of patriotic Soviets flooded Europe in a rage of anger.


Yeah, you get your news from the Onion, right?


If America were ever to attack Iran as a sovereign weapon, using nuclear or other such weapons, based on no a priori cause, you'd be facing a Spanish civil war all over again.

How many Arabs, or even South Americans and Europeans would stand for it? There would be international brigades whose sole goal weould be to reduce America to a pitiful state.

The Soviet Union had no chance against us when we had an atom bomb and they didn't. Stalin dead, Russia free, happy world.

As for Iran, I don't support nuking them, I support letting the CIA or some kind of spy network start blowing stuff up, hitting nukes, and saying "We don't know and we don't care."

If that didn't get rid of the nukes, invade.

If we had no other choice, fire nuke.

 

[useless]

your totally missing the point my ally was expressing but then you are american and USA #1

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Just calling it like I see it. If anyone thinks the USA is a threat to Europe but Iran isn't, that's sufficient cause to have them institutionalized so they cannot harm others.

Well if this was merely about nuking Europe, you are right. America is less likely to nuke Europe in the future than the Iran is. This may be called an established fact.
However, if one considers Iran to be just as unlikely to nuke Europe and takes other potential threats into account, I don't think the case is that easy.

 

[Grimz101]

The Short Answer: We got them first, and if we wanted to, we could've kept the monopoly, anyone who builds one gets nuked (I think this would be a stupid way to handle foreign policy, but it would've held the nuke monopoly a bit.)

The Long Answer: It's about rationality. First off, I don't think we should've let the Soviets live in their communist empire for any longer than the Nazis were a threat. I think we would've saved a lot of people by a well placed Atom Bomb in Moscow in 1945. However, at least they would never nuke us because of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction.) Iranian government long to be martyrs for Allah, if we have to make martyrs of them, I'd much rather take the first shot and not lose American lives.

Yes there are no Universities in Iran where people are taught about rational thinking. Iranians are certainly not allowed to attend other Universities in the world and emigrate back. Obviously they are taught to burn American & Israeli flags from the age of two. They are brainwashed by an extremist view of the islamic religion from birth and there are no secular people in that population of 75 million.

And you support the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians? As I've said before, you good sir are a saint and a shinning example of great Christians.