I think I understand now...

your right my mistake what i ment was while he was a devoted shia his hatred toward sunnis was way more powerfull then his love for shias thats why he was more tolerant towards christians then he was towards sunnis

That doesn't surprise me. It's not a unique sentiment. Liever Turks dan Paaps as the Dutch used to say. And the Byzantines "Better the Sultan's turban than the Cardinal's Hat" If I'm not mistaken it was Shah Abbas to invited the Portuguese in, and used them to found the first Safavid artillery corps.

I can certainly understand why you would dislike Islam living in an Islamic theocracy.

Karalysia, I don't really get your point about Shia Islam, are you saying that Shias dislike Muhammad?

No. But given their history and the context in which Shiaism arose with the murder of Imam Ali martyrdom of Imam Hussein at Karbala, there has historically been a tendency for Shia's to see things from the point of view of a persecuted or oppressed group, particularly anything to do with Sunni's. Thus I can understand why a Shia may be more prone to view things as being a power-hungry conspiracy, Shia's also revere Prophet Muhammad but perhaps less so since the Shia's have a varying number of Imam's to look to particularly the Hidden Imam.
 
From what I've seen, at least in Azerbaijan and from Alevis in Turkey, Imam Ali is the most popular.

ehlibeytyolcusu_1132611718314mi2my0%5B1%5D.jpg


This picture is the most common that you see hanging on rear view mirrors and places like that.

It means, may your heart be clean and from your tongue sweet words come out, but this is the first I've seen that written.
 
Does that mean you're done covering up the truth. You can admit there are subjects too deep to answer.
 
The thread starter. That you are the one responsible for your life and we have the wikipedia as a permanent solution to the lies.

Don't make perfection show us examples of Fraud again.
 
I still don't get exactly what you're talking about. I think you're taking this way more seriously than everyone else.
 
In regards to Dawkins, to me there is no difference between him and the Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons that come to my house trying to convert me.

If I want to choose a religion, I'll do my own research so I'll thank you to leave me the heck alone. Dawkins goes out of his way to try and convert people to Atheism and he does so in a very antagonistic and agressive manner. He does not strike me as the kind of person that is content to "agree to disagree" with someone who does not see things his way.

Just my observations.
Why would one be content to agree to disagree? If a person can produce no reason to believe what he does, and cannot refute your arguments, then his position is untenable and it is frustrating to invest time and effort into a debate that one's opponent didn't bother to tell you was a waste of your time. If that person also wields some power in the world and uses it according to false belief then allowing him to continue would be a crime, especially if he is doing wrong because of his beliefs.

Agreeing to disagree is a joke. It is a time-saving device to help people get along who are brought together for other reasons. So in a family, for example, you might hope to agree to disagree with your parents or sister in order to eat your meal in peace. When it comes to the underlying philosophy governing much of the world there is no more important use of time than to get it right.

Dawkins, like most mediocre debaters, argues against a patently absurd straw man because it's easier to do that, and dismisses anybody who doesn't conform to this straw man as a wuss or fence-sitter who wants to have it both ways. He's nothing special one way or the other.
Dawkins argues with every version or religion he encounters. That each one is not the same as any other is an obvious fact, not proof that he misses the point every time.
 
Dawkins' basic argument, as far as I see it, is 'religion on averageis bad, so we should get rid of religion'. Seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath-water to me, and while I greatly respect his intellect and moral courage I doubt he's ever going to get anywhere with the arrogance he displays or his methods.

More like throwing out the octogenarian with the bath water. I dare say religion isn't a baby anymore, what with having existed in various forms for oh shall we say for all of human history. If it's failed to justify itself in that time, well alas that its loss. If it can't be justified it must be repudiated as Bazarov would say.

That's a British expression, meaning that in getting rid of something bad you get rid of something good as well. He's saying that because 60% of what religion has done is bad, the best thing to do is get rid of the other 40% as well, rather than just trying to remove the 'bad' parts: fundamentalism and so on
 
Dawkins' basic argument, as far as I see it, is 'religion on averageis bad, so we should get rid of religion'. Seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath-water to me, and while I greatly respect his intellect and moral courage I doubt he's ever going to get anywhere with the arrogance he displays or his methods.

More like throwing out the octogenarian with the bath water. I dare say religion isn't a baby anymore, what with having existed in various forms for oh shall we say for all of human history. If it's failed to justify itself in that time, well alas that its loss. If it can't be justified it must be repudiated as Bazarov would say.
 
Does that mean you're done covering up the truth. You can admit there are subjects too deep to answer.
The thread starter. That you are the one responsible for your life and we have the wikipedia as a permanent solution to the lies.

Don't make perfection show us examples of Fraud again.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say... :confused: :crazyeye:
 
So is it the body of christ or not? Saying it is, but "not in the normal sense" is a hair split so fine that you cannot expect someone who isn't a believer to understand it because it makes no sense. It is not possible to misrepresent an argument that is nonsensical. Not a straw man.

So being a man is "an essential qualification to perform the rite" FACT not strawman.

There were official Church representatives in Africa telling AIDS infected people that using condoms increased the rate of HIV transmission. It is a fact that church reps were telling lies about the efficacy of condoms. There was a huge stir about it a year or so ago, you can't have missed it. The Church has since clarified it's position on the matter to prevent this from happening which is very much to their credit but doesn't change the fact that it was happening. Not a straw man.

He's speculating on the possible motives of someone who would change faiths. One difference between the churches, he points out, is that there aren't any women in the Catholic clergy. Who would want such a thing? Misogynists. It's a logical progression of thought. Not a straw man.

Then the Catholic Church is impotent as there are many other churches that have this power. It's seemingly a quite trivial matter to many faiths. Surely it must be easier than turning wafers into flesh that is not flesh "in the normal sense". If the Catholic god did not see fit to grant these powers perhaps Dawkins is wrong. Perhaps it is god that has the contempt for women and not the Church. This is the closest he comes to an actual straw man argument in this whole statement, and I don't think it quite makes the mark. More of an ad hom against Catholic husbands than anything else.

An inaccurate statement, perhaps, mostly because it uses the present tense rather than the past tense. Clearly not a straw man.

An opinion, a bit crude, but not one that I completely disagree with. Pandering to other faiths in order to lure some clergy to switching sides is a bit unseemly.
1) Yes it is the body of Christ, but the "accidents" of bread and wine are still there

2) No, being legitimately ordained to the priesthood is the essential qualification to perform the rite

3) He was specifically saying that the Church sent them to do that

4) Yeah, let us Reductio ad absurdum, good job

5) They don't have the power to legitimately ordain women either

6) The Catholic Church didn't change, they did
Does that mean you're done covering up the truth. You can admit there are subjects too deep to answer.

The thread starter. That you are the one responsible for your life and we have the wikipedia as a permanent solution to the lies.

Don't make perfection show us examples of Fraud again.

Then why is this forum here?
What are you trying to say
Join the club. I think even the Oracle of Delphi was less cryptic.
I think that's because the Oracle of Delphi a) fluently spoke that language and b) had a point
 
Why would one be content to agree to disagree? If a person can produce no reason to believe what he does, and cannot refute your arguments, then his position is untenable and it is frustrating to invest time and effort into a debate that one's opponent didn't bother to tell you was a waste of your time. If that person also wields some power in the world and uses it according to false belief then allowing him to continue would be a crime, especially if he is doing wrong because of his beliefs.

He does not save his antagonism for dangerous individuals alone, however. He seems to have a vested interest in convincing everyone that being an atheist is the only way to go, and to think otherwise is foolishness. While I respect (and share) his opinion, I also think to actively try to convert others is obnoxious behaviour. Much like the Mormons who just won't leave me the frak alone.

90% of the time, it's not regular folks that are causing the problems, anyway. It's the extremeists. These individuals should be condemned both within their community as well as by atheists/agnostics. To try and "save" average people by convincing them to reject their god (or gods) just smacks of arrogance and does not do anyone any favours.

Agreeing to disagree is a joke. It is a time-saving device to help people get along who are brought together for other reasons. So in a family, for example, you might hope to agree to disagree with your parents or sister in order to eat your meal in peace. When it comes to the underlying philosophy governing much of the world there is no more important use of time than to get it right.

However, if someone's religious beliefs cause you no harm or inconvenience, then why do you care what they do? Why even argue about it? Just pick your battles and get on with your life.
 
However, if someone's religious beliefs cause you no harm or inconvenience, then why do you care what they do? Why even argue about it? Just pick your battles and get on with your life.

Because most religious people don't seem to be content with keeping it to themselves. In fact, they are often commanded to infect everyone else with their superstitions to the point of wanting their nonsense taught as science in public schools.
 
This is what I mean by picking your battles. There are certainly times when one must stand his ground, but to actively invest energy in "converting" others is not the way to go, in my opinion. Reasonable people can find middle ground on these kinds of issues without adopting a scorched earth approach. If one cannot agree to teach Creationist ideas in one class, and Evolution in another (to use your example) then those people belong on the extreme fringe and do not represent the vast majority of regular folks. That's my experience, anyway.

If an Evangelical Christian offers me a pamphlet, should i take the time to try and convince them that there is no God, or should I simply say "No, thanks" and move on?
 
Because most religious people don't seem to be content with keeping it to themselves. In fact, they are often commanded to infect everyone else with their superstitions to the point of wanting their nonsense taught as science in public schools.

No one said Protestantism is sane.

I'd like atheists to prove beauty
 
I think that's because the Oracle of Delphi a) fluently spoke that language and b) had a point

The Oracle spoke in riddles but I still think she was probably easier to understand than Millman's posts.

No offense intended, sorry if that sounds rude.
 
Do we have to go through another round of Catholic bigotry? Can't we just agree that people have different ideas about what Christianity means?
 
Back
Top Bottom