Idea-Complacency

Cyrusfan

King
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Jul 18, 2009
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Revolutions and the early government civics punish you for overexpanding early, but the current rubber band mechanisms don't seem to me to be quite so effective once you start dominating the AI (for me I feel this is when I can grab a tech anytime I see an AI try to get it-usually to rob them of a religion or wonders). There are some ideas for disasters floating around that may do this once implemented, but I wanted to suggest something more mundane that occurred to me when I started running away with my last game.

The basic idea here is that once a civ gets far enough ahead to 'feel' ahead, it's people get soft and start taking it all for granted, forgetting the hard work it took to get there and, as a consequence, shirking the effort required to remain there.

Basically, once a civ has some lead established (say, 20% lead for 160 turns-which seems to be a magic number on Eternity), the Complacency effect would kick in. Each following turn, the Complacency Counter would increase proportional to the lead (guestimating in my head: {[lead score/second place score] - 1} x .01). The Complacency Counter would be applied as a penalty increasing all costs (maintenance, build, research, etc.) and at certain thresholds increasing unhappiness and unrest (say + 1 unhappy per .2 in all cities, and something similar for national unrest though I don't understand that enough to suggest specifics). The lead could be versus some average of leading competition (maybe the top fifth or something like that) alternatively.

Eventually this should pull the leader back to the pack, which is where complacency could suddenly turn to panic or resolve. Once a complacent civ falls to second (or worse) in score, two things happen. Some Complacency is reduced (this should be fairly rapid, maybe [complacent civ score/leader score]-1) each turn. Or the civ may panic and fall apart. The Panic chance is 1-1/(Complacency Counter + 1) [So it starts higher the longer and more dominant a lead you had]. This is checked each turn until either the Counter is reduced to 0 or the civ returns to first place. If a check fails, an additional check is made against every city (reduced by culture levels and ignored by capitals and similar maintenance distance reducing buildings) and every unit with additional failures assigning those objects to a new civ or the one resulting from a previous panic (pretty much the way revolutions seems to handle it but more catastrophic), with each such loss treated as a loss in war for whatever effects those have (weariness and unrest in remaining cities).

To keep the overall game winnable, the contributions to Complacency should be reduced in some way for each such collapse that has already occurred in the game.
 
Sounds good for the first part but I'm not liking the "fall apart" part. That's like a possible punishment for being in the lead, not good.

Cheers
 
Could even do it in reverse kinda. When behind your people see how other cultures are doing things and become inspired, jealous and competitive. They work harder, rip off ideas (such as with tech diffusion), would be best (easiest) coded into trade routes and production (hammer modifier) I think. Either way it'd eventuate in something like a 2-8% production 5-20% trade commerce I reckon. Any higher would be bad.
 
Sounds good for the first part but I'm not liking the "fall apart" part. That's like a possible punishment for being in the lead, not good.

Cheers
Any effective rubber band mechanic (like maintenance used to be) is going to be punishment for being in the lead. This is meant as a correction in games that are resulting in a runaway lead for the player, ideally before it becomes boring as a consequence. Differing player philosophies on that point would probably require something like this to be kept optional. And some factor for the current difficulty setting probably needs to be included.

@hydromancerx, I don't really know anything about dark ages. From what I remember of AND, they had already been disabled and abandoned when I started playing.
 
Any effective rubber band mechanic (like maintenance used to be) is going to be punishment for being in the lead. This is meant as a correction in games that are resulting in a runaway lead for the player, ideally before it becomes boring as a consequence. Differing player philosophies on that point would probably require something like this to be kept optional. And some factor for the current difficulty setting probably needs to be included.

@hydromancerx, I don't really know anything about dark ages. From what I remember of AND, they had already been disabled and abandoned when I started playing.

Dark Ages did not work correctly, and caused non-repeatable CTDs (this was before minidumps), so they were abandoned.
 
Dark Ages is something on my list to eventually take a close look at and see what the intent was and maybe work it into some other ideas.

But this is something else. I like the concept though I'd probably want to see it mostly just create a drag on the productivity of the nation in all areas. The collapse portion? I think that'd take some further thought to work out quite right.
 
@Cyrusfan,
What if you don't use REV and Civic City Limits?

What you are proposing was a foundational idea of REV long ago. And in the long run it's what has turned many ppl off to using REV. It destroys and does not build up.

Glad you said to make it Optional if ever developed.

JosEPh
 
You might be able to do something close to what I have in mind just by ramping up national instability when a panic hits. I just think it would be useful to transfer some of the player's uber-units to the break-away civ to give it some kind of fighting chance.

@JosERh II, I was under the impression folks steer clear of REV because the AI is too hampered by it. I haven't been remotely threatened by it since the first time I saw it in AND, and it mainly served to earn my first couple of great generals. Maybe sticking with pangaea maps has been keeping things to easy for me-I'm trying some others to get some perspective.

Did you ever use the first to last option in FFH? I guess I'm kind of looking for something similar here without the switching civs part. In addition to the historic reality of no one just getting better indefinitely, anyway.
 
Any effective rubber band mechanic (like maintenance used to be) is going to be punishment for being in the lead. This is meant as a correction in games that are resulting in a runaway lead for the player, ideally before it becomes boring as a consequence. Differing player philosophies on that point would probably require something like this to be kept optional. And some factor for the current difficulty setting probably needs to be included.

@hydromancerx, I don't really know anything about dark ages. From what I remember of AND, they had already been disabled and abandoned when I started playing.

Not that I have any real say in this (I've never actually even played with the mod, tbh), but I think Bluegenie's point was that you could end up worse off after you've been in the lead and had a 'fall apart' than you would have been if you'd been trailing for the entire game, hence you are 'punished' for leading. The first half, on the other hand, would only move your position back towards the other players' (slipping into a close second place for a short time) so that you still retain a strong position relative to the other civs, only not as runaway as you otherwise would have done. You're still in a better position than you would have been had you been trailing, but a trailing player has a chance against you.

To use the 'rubber band' analogy, the first part is similar to letting the rubber band retract slowly to the point where it's as stretched as it can be without pulling, while the second would be letting go of the band so it snaps back much further than the point where it stops stretching.
 
Not that I have any real say in this (I've never actually even played with the mod, tbh), but I think Bluegenie's point was that you could end up worse off after you've been in the lead and had a 'fall apart' than you would have been if you'd been trailing for the entire game, hence you are 'punished' for leading. The first half, on the other hand, would only move your position back towards the other players' (slipping into a close second place for a short time) so that you still retain a strong position relative to the other civs, only not as runaway as you otherwise would have done. You're still in a better position than you would have been had you been trailing, but a trailing player has a chance against you.

To use the 'rubber band' analogy, the first part is similar to letting the rubber band retract slowly to the point where it's as stretched as it can be without pulling, while the second would be letting go of the band so it snaps back much further than the point where it stops stretching.

Correct pi4t.
I don't mind being pulled back with the "rubber band" analogy but having my carefully built civilization fall apart because I'm playing well is not something I would like to see implemented as a possibility in the game.

Cheers
 
Maybe instead of 'falling apart' being the end product, how about instead that the likeliness of staying together becomes more difficult but not impossible to achieve.

Until you achieve equilibrium, that would be interesting. On the same note, would neighbours be able to obtain bonuses? I'm assuming that not everyone would be complacent and a resulting brain drain may see people cross over into more open lands. This would speed up the fall of complacency within the one civ by bringing up the average of surrounding civs while creating competition.
 
A note about Rev:

Many values are easily edited in the Revolution ini file. These values include a modifier for human revs and values for specific rev factors such as religion and distance. By tweaking these values, you can balance rev to your liking. For example, I put the general rev chance from 1 to 0.7 and raised the human modifier to 3, so the AI is more stable than I am. I also change various factors depending on the era I'm in, such as high religious instability in the medieval era and high nationality revs in the industrial.
 
I was thinking... a lack of war would bring on some complacence as well wouldn't it? Extended peace seems to throw societies into a state of overconfidence.
 
But if you get a penalty for not going to war all of the small civs that don't have many units would suffer greatly
 
A note about Rev:

Many values are easily edited in the Revolution ini file. These values include a modifier for human revs and values for specific rev factors such as religion and distance. By tweaking these values, you can balance rev to your liking. For example, I put the general rev chance from 1 to 0.7 and raised the human modifier to 3, so the AI is more stable than I am. I also change various factors depending on the era I'm in, such as high religious instability in the medieval era and high nationality revs in the industrial.

I would like to hear more "exactly" what you do , sounds very interesting:)
 
I can post my Rev file if you want to look at it. Also, when I get to the point in the game that other civs cannot compete with me, I raise the human modifier to very high levels, watch my empire crumble, and take control of one of the new factions. I find this a very effective way to keep the game interesting for a long time.
 
Wasn't there a dark ages concept in C2C before that didn't work?
 
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