I'm clicking the "retire" button on Civ VII

[McSpank01]

I tried that too recently and found the exact opposite. The moment I built my first builder I just had an "ugh, this sucks" moment, and then started thinking about how I was going to need to spam cities everywhere, micromanage units without commanders...

I have thousands of hours in Civ6, and I adore the game.

I also think that Civ7's best features are these core changes like no builders, army commanders and towns/cities. It could ditch eras/civ switching and I'd probably be happier...But those core features are now things I don't want to play without

I really didn't seem to mind the builders, and actually in some ways moving units feels a little better in civ 6 because they just move faster and are more responsive to mouse clicks. Yeah I wouldn't mind commanders, but even then, there is still a bit of busy work involved in gathering and detaching units into a commander.

Currently I don't think towns and cities works all that great, it's a better idea than it is in practice.

Just playing Civ 6 for 30 minutes I can see how it's just at doing almost all the basic stuff that Civ 7 is trying to do. There doesn't really seem to be much reason to go back to 7 right now.

 

[Leucarum]

I really didn't seem to mind the builders, and actually in some ways moving units feels a little better in civ 6 because they just move faster and are more responsive to mouse clicks. Yeah I wouldn't mind commanders, but even then, there is still a bit of busy work involved in gathering and detaching units into a commander.

Currently I don't think towns and cities works all that great, it's a better idea than it is in practice.

Just playing Civ 6 for 30 minutes I can see how it's just at doing almost all the basic stuff that Civ 7 is trying to do. There doesn't really seem to be much reason to go back to 7 right now.

Hmm, well I find it fascinating that we're having almost the opposite reaction. I find the core gameplay of 7 so good that I miss it if it isn't there. The builders, Infinite City Spam, and crazy micromanagement in Civ6 now really stick out for me like a sore thumb.

If they put out a classic-ified version of 7 without Civ switching and eras I have no doubt it would be close to a perfect civ game in my mind.

 

[McSpank01]

Hmm, well I find it fascinating that we're having almost the opposite reaction. I find the core gameplay of 7 so good that I miss it if it isn't there. The builders, Infinite City Spam, and crazy micromanagement in Civ6 now really stick out for me like a sore thumb.

If they put out a classic-ified version of 7 without Civ switching and eras I have no doubt it would be close to a perfect civ game in my mind.

Yeah I think that to me, those additions feel like minor quality of life changes, and mostly ones that become annoying towards the endgame. I don't think Civ 7 has essentially solved many of the problems presented in Civ 6, and in fact it really hasn't even reached the same level of quality if I just measure the general gameplay.

For instance managing builders is tedious, but mindlessly activating a tile with no decision making is also not a good replacement
Infinite city spam is awful in Civ 6, but Civ 7 also kind of encourages having more settlements than is manageable and managing them still feels like work.

On top of that, just all the things I mentioned above, and the way that the actual game mechanics work is simply more thought out and well constructed than in Civ 7.

Civ 7 feels like it went back to the drawing board, and a large part of the game is doing the same thing as Civ 6, but mostly it's not even doing it as well. The newer features it introduced have mostly fallen flat. Ages doesn't really work very well for instance. So right now it's very hard to see a reason why I would play 7 over 6.

 

[Leucarum]

Yeah I think that to me, those additions feel like minor quality of life changes, and mostly ones that become annoying towards the endgame. I don't think Civ 7 has essentially solved many of the problems presented in Civ 6, and in fact it really hasn't even reached the same level of quality if I just measure the general gameplay.

For instance managing builders is tedious, but mindlessly activating a tile with no decision making is also not a good replacement
Infinite city spam is awful in Civ 6, but Civ 7 also kind of encourages having more settlements than is manageable and managing them still feels like work.

On top of that, just all the things I mentioned above, and the way that the actual game mechanics work is simply more thought out and well constructed than in Civ 7.

Civ 7 feels like it went back to the drawing board, and a large part of the game is doing the same thing as Civ 6, but mostly it's not even doing it as well. The newer features it introduced have mostly fallen flat. Ages doesn't really work very well for instance. So right now it's very hard to see a reason why I would play 7 over 6.

Ok. There is some overlap in opinions. I do think in almost all Civ7's big swings (the 1/3 new) they missed the mark by a big margin. So we agree there.

I do think the 1/3 improved is so good though that it makes Civ7 have the best core gameplay (basic systems, not the era system and such) the franchise has seen. Just take a look at Antiquity, before that first era switch, Civ7 is almost perfection IMO. I guess I'm more hyped about these changes than you are.

It seems to me the difference is that for me the core gameplay changes makes it tough to go back to previous civ games, while for you the big swings make it tough to play Civ7.

Ultumately that the core game is so solid makes me pretty confident that whether Firaxis reaches the point voluntarily or has to be dragged there kicking and screaming over Civ7's still-warm corpse, there is going to be a classic version of Civ7. If the game flops utterly it's still going to be cheaper to update 7 from its solid foundations than start from scratch.

 

[McSpank01]

Ok. There is some overlap in opinions. I do think in almost all Civ7's big swings (the 1/3 new) they missed the mark by a big margin. So we agree there.

I do think the 1/3 improved is so good though that it makes Civ7 have the best core gameplay (basic systems, not the era system and such) the franchise has seen. Just take a look at Antiquity, before that first era switch, Civ7 is almost perfection IMO. I guess I'm more hyped about these changes than you are.

It seems to me the difference is that for me the core gameplay changes makes it tough to go back to previous civ games, while for you the big swings make it tough to play Civ7.

Ultumately that the core game is so solid makes me pretty confident that whether Firaxis reaches the point voluntarily or has to be dragged there kicking and screaming over Civ7's still-warm corpse, there is going to be a classic version of Civ7. If the game flops utterly it's still going to be cheaper to update 7 from its solid foundations than start from scratch.

I’m not sure if we are close or far apart here. If i take antiquity age in 7, I mostly enjoy it. However, I’m also not sure what they have introduced into 7 that is an improvement than 6. Commanders maybe, towns is a nice idea they need to do better with. There are many aspects that could maybe be good but just kind of fall flat. Using influence is a nice idea, but really it’s a boring system of just hitting a button. Lots of things like that.

Essentially I think the core gameplay loop for 6 and 7 is pretty similar, but 6 is pretty much doing it better, especially in the early game. Yes it did always have a dull end game, but ages hasn’t fixed that at all.

I’m actually really struggling to think of very much where I prefer what 7 is doing, maybe I like the visuals around cities, but that’s it.

 

[Leucarum]

I’m not sure if we are close or far apart here. If i take antiquity age in 7, I mostly enjoy it. However, I’m also not sure what they have introduced into 7 that is an improvement than 6. Commanders maybe, towns is a nice idea they need to do better with. There are many aspects that could maybe be good but just kind of fall flat. Using influence is a nice idea, but really it’s a boring system of just hitting a button. Lots of things like that.

Essentially I think the core gameplay loop for 6 and 7 is pretty similar, but 6 is pretty much doing it better, especially in the early game. Yes it did always have a dull end game, but ages hasn’t fixed that at all.

I’m actually really struggling to think of very much where I prefer what 7 is doing, maybe I like the visuals around cities, but that’s it.

I think it's a bit of both to be honest. I definitely agree that 7 doesn't really achieve most of its design goals. I do think it will eventually reach the spot it needs to if it gets the chance though!

 

[civplayer3]

Anyone who digs through my post history will see that I have always been very optimistic for this game. I initially enjoyed the era changes and other decisions that led me to finish every game I started. It felt fresh and new. However, the more I played, the more the cracks began to show.

This latest version update was a wake-up call for me. This game was released in an incomplete state and has essentially been crowd-sourced ever since. They consistently rely on "community feedback" to make even the most obvious of design changes. They have made it explicit now, by marking the patch notes to denote which entries were suggested by users.

Firaxis doesn't seem to have a vision for the game. Every update brings concessions and changes to what initially seemed to be informed design decisions. I now accept that they are just making it up as they go. Hell, they didn't even have the backbone to stick with their original game icon, changing it immediately at the behest of a single Reddit post.

I didn't buy Civ 7 to "invest" in a future game. I don't play Civ game with the intent of submitting feedback. I signed up for the "content roadmap", but not to be a game designer. I enjoy Civ games when I am learning a particular set of mechanics and improving my play over time. This is difficult in Civ 7, when the game is missing basic functions and repeatedly changing the rules of the game.

I'm clicking the RETIRE button on Civ 7. Fortunately, Firaxis still hasn't added a "hall of fame" feature to record my surrender.

I'm almost ready to join you. Civ VII, for me, is seriously flawed. Units are attacked (& eliminated) & the player isn't notified. Can't place defensive 'fortifications' where they are most needed. Not allowed to negotiate like my opponents can. And I can't find any thing that explains all the concepts to me. Even purchased two worthless books that claim "to be offical" in explaining the game. It seems the player has surrendered of lot his decision making abilites in this game.

My fav has been CIV V - it gives me the decision making freedom denied in VII. Civ VII has great graphics, but that does not address it's too many shortcomings.

 

[Lazy sweeper]

I too worry that the developers are abandoning their original vision for the game, but a lot of posters critical of that vision are probably happy that this is the case.

Time will tell what the right choice was (other than "making a different game", I'm speaking given the game that was released as-is, what paths the developers had to support and iterate on it post-release).

Idk, the "vision" seems like some Mythological thing no-one ever understood what was it about...
I'd bet my two $ that most of the devs still understands only things like blocks, links and perhaps straight lines, althought I'm not 100% certain on the third one.

When somebody with a vision get a block in its path, it usually get around it and try to pretend it isn't there.
When a dev finds a block into its path he needs to figure out if it's reflective, if it deals damage, it's sticky...

 

[Lazy sweeper]

I'm almost ready to join you. Civ VII, for me, is seriously flawed. Units are attacked (& eliminated) & the player isn't notified. Can't place defensive 'fortifications' where they are most needed. Not allowed to negotiate like my opponents can. And I can't find any thing that explains all the concepts to me. Even purchased two worthless books that claim "to be offical" in explaining the game. It seems the player has surrendered of lot his decision making abilites in this game.

My fav has been CIV V - it gives me the decision making freedom denied in VII. Civ VII has great graphics, but that does not address it's too many shortcomings.

Look, I have made a pool for Physical medium, with civilopedia printed... get there a vote, let them hear your voice...
We used to have instructions. Printed instructions for Civs and the Map Editor software.
I would take it to the toilet and read it sometime.
We want that back.
Well written document.

 

[King of Prussia]

Tbh, while not having builders helps with AI, it didnt have a major impact on removing late game tedium. After a certain point, you just dont care anymore about assigning pop to a tile/specialist. Its just another click you have to do for each city/town. Just give me an option to automate it.

 

[MutilationWave]

Tbh, while not having builders helps with AI, it didnt have a major impact on removing late game tedium. After a certain point, you just dont care anymore about assigning pop to a tile/specialist. Its just another click you have to do for each city/town. Just give me an option to automate it.

I still enjoy it even late. It feels satisfying to me to place another population always.

 

[McSpank01]

Tbh, while not having builders helps with AI, it didnt have a major impact on removing late game tedium. After a certain point, you just dont care anymore about assigning pop to a tile/specialist. Its just another click you have to do for each city/town. Just give me an option to automate it.

Agree, at some point it all just becomes micromanagement. I do feel like the overall gameplay loop in the endgame should really feel quite different to the early game.

 

[Leucarum]

The micromanagement in modern isn't too bad especially compared to other games. At game end it's hitting the upper limit of what I'm ok with - yet another reason not to want a 4th age.

The problem for me is that in modern the micromanagement is pointless after the first 20-30 turns. Once you've leveraged your snowball over the first 20 turns modern is "click till you win" and I usually end up with a lot of SHIFT-ENTER turns because while I could do the micromanagement, less and less things become worth doing...

 

[aieeegrunt]

I'm almost ready to join you. Civ VII, for me, is seriously flawed. Units are attacked (& eliminated) & the player isn't notified. Can't place defensive 'fortifications' where they are most needed. Not allowed to negotiate like my opponents can. And I can't find any thing that explains all the concepts to me. Even purchased two worthless books that claim "to be offical" in explaining the game. It seems the player has surrendered of lot his decision making abilites in this game.

My fav has been CIV V - it gives me the decision making freedom denied in VII. Civ VII has great graphics, but that does not address it's too many shortcomings.

These are all abosolutly unacceptable in a finished product, which Cuv7 clearly is not.

It’s pretty clear Firazis eithet does zero playtesting, ot ignores any testing feedback

Leveraging fanbois and FOMO had allowed a lot of mainstrean AAA developers get away with shipping increasingly shoddy unfinished work. I knew at some point they’d take it too far, and for this franchise I guess we hit that wall.

The micromanagement in modern isn't too bad especially compared to other games. At game end it's hitting the upper limit of what I'm ok with - yet another reason not to want a 4th age.

The problem for me is that in modern the micromanagement is pointless after the first 20-30 turns. Once you've leveraged your snowball over the first 20 turns modern is "click till you win" and I usually end up with a lot of SHIFT-ENTER turns because while I could do the micromanagement, less and less things become worth doing...

So they gutted the game’s core identity and Fallout76’d themselves for nothing.

 

[MutilationWave]

The micromanagement in modern isn't too bad especially compared to other games. At game end it's hitting the upper limit of what I'm ok with - yet another reason not to want a 4th age.

The problem for me is that in modern the micromanagement is pointless after the first 20-30 turns. Once you've leveraged your snowball over the first 20 turns modern is "click till you win" and I usually end up with a lot of SHIFT-ENTER turns because while I could do the micromanagement, less and less things become worth doing...

What if there were a fourth age and you were actually building towards it in modern? I actually want this to make modern matter and just have the 4th age same civ victory rush.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

What if there were a fourth age and you were actually building towards it in modern? I actually want this to make modern matter and just have the 4th age same civ victory rush.

That wouldn't solve the problem though, that would just push it to the 4th era. Arent you building towards modern in exploration already?

 

[stealth_nsk]

That wouldn't solve the problem though, that would just push it to the 4th era. Arent you building towards modern in exploration already?

Yep. Civ6 has this problem for about 40% of the game, Civ7 currently for about 20%, and with 4th age, the problem will be for about 10% of the game.

 

[MutilationWave]

That wouldn't solve the problem though, that would just push it to the 4th era. Arent you building towards modern in exploration already?

Nah I forgot.

 

[Glassmage]

Civ7 player count is abysmal. This is over. Civ8 plz if Firaxis is not disbanding.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

Yep. Civ6 has this problem for about 40% of the game, Civ7 currently for about 20%, and with 4th age, the problem will be for about 10% of the game.

How are you arriving at those figures? Impression I've got fromost people is that almost the entire modern age is clicking through, if it even lasts longer than 30 turns. That's 33% of the game by design but I suppose a minimum about 10% of the game by turns already?

Civ VI I would argue has it for about 90% - as soon as you unlock districts it falls off for me.