Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by emzie, Mar 18, 2016.
why do we need gendered bathrooms, anyway
In addition, I would like to note that this is currently the case approximately everywhere in the world and the only trouble people have with it is trans people going into their preferred gender restrooms.
Hm, I am not sure where you saw males using routinely the female public bathroom, but it isn't common at all. Which would make it more of an issue if one looks like a male and tries to use the female bathroom - it is why I asked about requirements re transitioning, else anyone can just not be doing anything and identify as TG.
Moreover, while public baths aren't the most important issue, think of what vagueness does to legal rights of any minority. Eg by your logic it would create no issue if no criteria were there for people to identify as minorities; no one would fake it to get into university in the US under such minority-only programs.
Only they do, even now when there are criteria. Imagine how easier it is when there are none - and if it is fair for TG to suffer due to imposters who are just cis.
The main idea is that any group wishing to be granted some status (and opportunities due to it) has to be definable in some specific way.
I am not going down any route. I am presenting examples from reality.
It's perfectly common and it happens all the time, and it also goes the other way round. Most times people will go into their assigned gender's restrooms but, if it is not possible for whatever reason, or if it is significantly more convenient, they will use the other when everyone understands that it is a reasonable thing to do.
I will not believe that you have never in your life used a ladies' room even by mistake.
If you don't get that the public bathrooms issue is just one (very minor) issue, but for any (major/important) special right granted to TG (ala rights to homosexuals, of which there are many examples - work/marriage etc) TG will need to be defined in a specific way (and not: regardless of actual transitioning or will to transition or chronic/brief self-identification or look or use of hormones etc etc), I'd suggest you start to get it.
The whole point is that this is not a special right or a privilege in any way, unless you think you being gracefully allowed into men's toilets is a special right or privilege.
If you think it is, you are being part of the problem.
I mean, I am sure no females will have an issue with cis-males using that argument to walk into the females' public bathroom. I wonder why there exist separate such public bathrooms in the first place - can't be due to real risks***.
Then again, as you say one doesn't need to do anything to claim they are TG (would be pretty offensive to have any criteria), so cis impostors are fine too.
Indeed. Why would anyone be afraid of being attacked/raped in a small and/or isolated space anyone can enter at any time. Some females are just too paranoid amirite. Thankfully with no criteria the cis males can approach them in the bathroom.
Unique individuals need representation in legal arenas [read: courtrooms] in order to be a protected class.
Specific criteria is a necessary requirement to accomplish this.
Ah yes, the hypothetical man in a dress abusing women in a female changing room or toilet.
But yet you expect me to be calm and polite to you, even as you dogwhistle and suggest reasons/arguments that are considered offensive.
Abuse against women in isolated spaces is indeed highly hypothetical - but what can one do.
edit: I now saw your edit. I'd advise you to not go down that route.
Why is the fact that a cis man could, if he so desired, enter a female-only space and abuse them a reason to restrict or deny basic human rights and dignity to trans people?
And why should i not bristle at people bringing up such a tired, trite dogwhistle?
IRL has been a mess for me for the last ~9 months, but especially so the last few weeks. I would like to add my voice to more of the discussion happening here but I just don't have the energy. I wanna thank @JohannaK, @Cloud_Strife and @Tolina for taking their time to add their voices to this thread. My personal answer to each question they have answered might be specifically different in nuance, but I endorse what they've had to say fully.
As to the last few weeks, well, they happen to be related to this thread and I'm going to rant about them soon. But first,
I'm not asexual, but I would place myself ace-adjacent. I would rather give up sex than wikipedia.
has been presented to me dozens of times. My answer: if you're actually asking, you're probably trans. The question itself isn't limited to fetish -- "Am I trans, or...?" exists independent of any kink, any fetish. I didn't discover the concept of "wtf is gender and wtf are you" through porn or sex, I discovered it through people I met. My self doubt wasn't, "is it a fetish?" but instead, "is it an aspie fixation?" combined with "is this just another 'easy answer' to the question of my own mental illness?"
Whenever someone reaches the point of asking the question, "Am I trans, or..." it means they've reached the point where they're wondering if the next step is an action or not. Taking the fetish possibility from your post, if someone's "fetish" has gotten so complex as to intrude on the rest of their life -- in a nonsexual manner -- then they're not really asking "is this a fetish" but rather, "is this reality, and if so, is it something I should respond to?"
Do they want to be trans? If I ask someone questioning, "do you want to be Trans?" and their answer is yes, I gotta say it brings up warning alarms. Anyone who *wants* to be trans, for any other reason than "well I got my answer...." I am skeptical. Actually being trans, or NB, effin' sucks. To want to live life on hard mode raises a lot of questions in me. You think you have a fetish about being fem? How does that translate outside of the fetish sphere? Do you get off being dehumanized? Do you get off at the idea that some fratbois will pull up next to you in traffic, stare at you in your car, pointing and laughing? If that is a sexual high for you, then idk, that might be a fetish. Basically, if you take that interactions outside of sexualized contexts, and the desire to be a woman is still there despite the lack of sexual reaction, then ya probably somewhere on the trans spectrum.
There are an undefined number of ways to doubt if you're trans or not. Fetishism is one. If the person places their feelings into a comprehensive context -- the fetish, yes, but also every other aspect of their lives -- and can't rule out that it's "just a fetish" then that person should at least be considering further exploration.
Except the argument that is being proposed as a reason to delay or deny trans rights is inherently bigoted, but not only that it attacks trans people for something they as a group aren't even doing!
If you think I am attacking you by presenting a logic against having no criteria for TG, then you should realize that accepting you only means I accept TG, not that I accept it can be not defined at all and still be protected publicly.
Anyway, you know what? My posts won't change your society in the slightest, so if you don't even want to read them I don't need to bother.
To this day, I still don't know what cis male means.
The argument that trans women in particular, shouldn't be able to use female changing rooms or toilets because a CIS male could abuse it and use it to rape or attack people is facile, but not only that it's offensive to my sensibilities because you've effectively lumped in trans people with predators, but not just that, you've used the existence of cis predators to deny something to a group that is incredibly margininalized, even within the most tolerant of societies.
BUT NOT JUST THAT, I have heard the argument be used by some really awful, bigoted people, so if you use that argument or propose it as "logic" you're signalling to me that you're going down a certain and i don't want to entertain the idea because it's rubbish.
Ask or pm @emzie whether this logic or argument isn't demeaning or offensive to the trans community and if she tells you it is, maybe listen to her rather than insisting it's not
Ok, @Cloud_Strife this settles it then, given we are in the high court of CFC. I am sure the issue of ambiguity and lack of criteria will never come up again in TG matters IRL public. There, it wasn't that difficult, was it now - and this hugely important victory was only achieved at the expense of making me realize how pointless discussing things here is.
A year ago, my SIL filed for divorce with her husband. And when they seperated, finally, I was allowed to be part of my niece's lives. Their dad wasn't cool with them knowing me. For that time, I've done my damned best to be a good role model to my nieces, neither of whom think of themselves as straight. I am effin' proud of the work I have put in with both of them and I truly believe they're better off from knowing me than if they hadn't.
But I'm trans, and half the goddamn observers of this think it's weird how close I am to either niece. My MIL and FIL got into a fight with my SIL 2 weeks ago, and one of the things they shouted was that it was inappropriate for me to be close to either teenage girl. Why? Well, they didn't explicitly say, and I can't *prove* it, but I know it has to do with me being trans. Their "uncomfort" may as well be rephrased as I'm a child rapist. What evidence do they see? My eldest niece and I have a connection. She's 17, and she's a lot like me and I, like her. Thus, in the minds of so many of my family, I'm not a healthy role model, I'm dangerous.
I cannot put into words how much all of that hurts. To me, they might as well as accused me of wanting to have inappropriate relations with my cats. And the worst part of all of that is that I'm expected to understand them. I'm expected to think their "concerns" are fair. Again, I can't prove it, but none of them would question a cis aunt or a cis uncle having the same relationship with each niece as I do now. My anger and hurt over all this kerfuffle is invalidated by almost everyone: I should be more understanding of their concerns.
And all I can think is, if I wanted to be a child molester, then being trans is hard mode. Specifically because of the association so many cis people have.
and with that, I retire to crying in bed, because the burden of every god damn interaction being twice filtered: normal filter, then "she's trans" filter is more than I truly want to deal with. I've just wanted to be a good role model. nothing more. and that's the heap of crap that's added to my default.
This annoys me because even a cusory glance of discussion in the transcommunity shows that the very criteria has been harmful to trans people, especially because this whole topic is, by nature of it being about someone's personal identity, incredibly ambiguous and not grounded in the same solidity other medical issues might be.
Separate names with a comma.