Immortal Challenge: War is Peace

[Revent]

@BiC + Seraiel

As for Currency after Construction, I do see the many perks of it and this is my first game that I have not gone for Currency ASAP (I think it's one of the most important techs in the game, if not the most), but my logic was that if I could get to Construction 10 turns earlier, I'd be able to war quicker which would speed up my longer term game.

In hindsight, I still think it worked out well because I was able to trade for Currency and Alphabet and get MC and some other early techs off Shaka for peace. The war against Shaka, SB and Monty cost me 35 elephants and 21 catapults in total to get 14-16 cities or so. 10 turns later, I would probably have needed significantly more units and Shaka would have declared on me and I'd be lacking the units to defend myself and then attack him.

Would currency first have worked out better? I think NOT in this particular instance, but there's only one way to find out. I may go back and try a replay from that point if I have a save.

 

[Revent]

It doesn't matter which stance an AI has towards you, when you share the same war, or if an AI is your Vassal.

And I wrote "take Accuracy against Castles" , because Accuracy greatly raises the bombardement-value of a Siege-weapon, and Castles usually need very long to bombard.

More collateral is only needed when you got very few Siege-weapons, like for the last cities of an opponent before you transform to newer Siege or Mounted, in the other cases it's better to promote to CR because it greatly increases the survival of the unit and stronger units also make more dmg.

Oh I see! That is quite clever. I wonder if that could be used/manipulated to get Toku to open borders at Cautious

Okay, that makes sense! I did have a few cities where the defence was nearly 150% or so and I was like dammnn my Cuirs don't have a chance since her stack was hiding in the city. Without seige, it was a struggle so I had to take small bunches of Cuirs out that would stand on a hill/pillage TR's to disconnect metal and she would attack them whilst reinforcements arrived. I see, so CR is better than barrage or accuracy unless AI has castles. Thanks for the insight, will bear that in mind I almost always religiously used collateral promotions to prevent Cuirs from dying at all.

 

[Revent]

So I thought, "what the heck ? I dont have the opportunity to play as Gandhi everyday, settling on coastal stone... Maybe I can solve this opening."
3rd attempts, to 2000 BC :

Spoiler :

The first question is Worker vs Workboats.
1 worker costs 60H.
2 workboats cost 60H. Same.

With Agriculture, the worker can improve 3x 4 yield tiles (farm, mine, mine), one of those producing 1 commerce (riverside mine).
The 2 workboats net 4 yield tiles + 2 commerce each. But then one needs a worker (another 60H) before producing a settler.

--> It is desirable to produce workboats early but not necessarily before the worker.
The worker is needed anyway.
--> Workboats shouldn't be slowbuit but rather chopped.

--> Tech path goes Fishing into Bronze Working.
As it happens, the worker can mine both hills and then a single worker turn is wasted.

After the worker is produced, the key objective becomes to build a settler. This requires growth.
So working the rice is better than producing a 5t workboat working the forested plains hills.
When the riverside green hills are mined, however, working hammers is ok :

Spoiler :

After the 1st workboat is done, growth resumes, then the mine is worked again.
After BW is completed, chops can come in.
Masonry is started, so the Stonehenge can be completed early. Early Stonehenge is crucial to an early shrine, which is crucial to religious spread (along with Sailing) :

Spoiler :

At that point, we can produce another warrior (with chop n°2) and grow to size 3 asap to start on the first settler (growing to 4 would only be a delay).
Chop, chop, chop :

Spoiler :

Masonry done, we start on The Wheel to connect the second city.
Settler is out, Worker completes a chop before starting on the gold mine (delays 1 turn) to speed up the Stonehenge :

Spoiler :

Bombay is settled on t34, Stonehenge will be done on t35 (Great Prophet out on t60) :

Spoiler :

Bombay starts on a worker to help with development. It won't grow anyway, so a worker is good.
From this point on, Delhi needs to grow to 4 (on another warrior) before starting on another Settler.

Spoiler :

After completing the gold mine, the worker will chop to speed up the worker in Bombay (then both workers will road to connect the cities). Improving the gold is much better than connecting the cities.
After The Wheel, research is set to Polytheism, Monotheism.

After the worker is done, Bombay can help producing warriors for safety.
Delhi doesn't whip the first Settler, because it goes Settler --> Settler :

Spoiler :

Whipping the first settler would delay the 2nd. However, the second settler can be whipped (104H/100 : minimal overflow for a 2pop whip) and it will grab the eastern gold + rice site. This is the turn the 3rd city is settled and the end of the set :

Spoiler :

3rd city starts on a worker by lack of other thing to do. Maybe that worker will be chopped into.
Bombay switched onto a Warrior after the barb Spear has appeared. It put a few hammers into the Pyramids before that. The city needs to work the gold for as long as we're "gunning" for techs. It will grow as soon as possible, though (preferably on an improved rice, but even a 3F tile is ok).

So... 2000 BC :
3 cities settled, 1 settler out next turn.
2 workers done,
4 warriors out,
1 turn to monotheism.
Next Agriculture is researched, then Sailing. Then AH/Pottery.

Probably this isn't optimal but I think it is pretty good, considering the objectives at hand.
Worst point is that I couldn't meet Tokugawa.
A thing to note is that Sitting Bull, not Monty, founded Hinduism.

The game looks much more different now! I've also done a take 2 to 2000BC.

Spoiler :

Tech Path: Fishing, BW, Agri, Masonry, TW, AH, Writing

Capital: Warrior, Warrior Warrior->WB->WB->Settler->Warrior->Settler->TGW->'Mids
City 2: Settler
City 3: Monument
City 4: Settling next turn, I like your position for Vijay much better than mine actually.

Just comparing screenshots, your research at breakeven is 16 whereas mine is at 15bpt but that will change soon once my second gold comes online. I will get fourth city out faster than you, but I think you got Bombay out first. TGW was an interesting choice because I'm saving the hammers/maintenance from not having to fogbust and have double the military power than you so that will aid somewhat in delaying any attacks from me.

I never really considered the cons of whipping (regrowth time and loss of tile). This time, I did consider it and I haven't actually whipped anything yet. Capital has 5/6 good tiles to work off the bat, so I decided against whipping the capital. Whether or not that was optimal, I don't quite know.

Future path looks like it will be along the lines of Writing->Hunting->Pottery->Maths->Currency/Construction
Alternatively, it could easily be Writing->Hunting->HBR->Archery but that will require settling a not so good city to get horses.


One negative aspect that I haven't thought about too much is the HUGE negative loss of getting a GSpy (and it diluting my future GS points). The first spy may not hurt so much compared to getting them a few times which could be a gamebreaker.

 

[Revent]

700 AD Attempt TWO Speedrun

As estimated, Currency->Construction delays war by ~10 turns. I played a quick run through of my second attempt to 700AD.

Spoiler :

Not clearfrom the screenshots, but I literally wiped the game with my second attempt keeping in mind that this was a quick run through and I did not bother much/hardly with the micro at all and did not care too much about choking SB although in hindsight, I should have because he now has 8 cities and is a formidable opponent.

Some things to note:

-I was first to Code of Laws and Philosophy.
-Paper and CS both came at 50BC (bulbed Paper)
-Popped 3 great generals. Settled one; made the ultimate defence archer with one and super healer axe with the final.
-I got everyone to hate Monty by spreading him Conf. so that I didn't get any penalties for declaring war and gifted Isabella my Taoist missionary so that she could spread the religion for me
-I'm going to be the first to get to Music as well and probably Economics too.
-I can research Lib right now!
-Shaka declared war on me VERY early on which caused me to spend 3 turns wasting on Archery and that was what prompted me to generate the super defender to deal with Shaka sending his nonstop small stacks to Vijay.
-Not to be proud of necessarily, but I've only built 6 or 7 cottages which have all been worked by one city. Game should be over far before cottages start becoming powerful.


I don't think I will play this further because I've won already and I am times ahead than what I was in my first run.


Interesting to note is that war did actually take 10 turns longer to finish with one less city although that is because I've been settling less in this turnset. Which is what I expected if I went Currency->Construction. Having said that, my economy is in MUCH better shape now than it ever was. War with Monty was a bit trickier this time around because of the later war, he made peace with SB and all his promoted units were actually quite strong. But it still worked out pretty well.



Sorry for all the spam, but I think it is quite useful to see a before and after to see what can be done better. I do hope that what I've typed does get read!

 

[sampsa]

@Revent: Good job!

On your 2nd run, it does look much better. I'm still far from sold concerning GW, as it's hard to see how that GSpy could compete with a GS. You also miss failgold, which would make you reach currency/construction earlier. Building cottages only in capital IS something to be proud of IMO.

 

[FlyingSwan]

@revent.Im suprised you bulbed paper,but I suppose if your going early conquest is doesnt matter,Ive always found this tech too cheap not to just self research and then put the Bulb into education.Its amazing what a differnce it makes once you get the initial turnset right,once that war machine is rolling it can become unstoppable.

I Like the super archer,when a game goes long enough I love upgrading these guys to machine guns-which ordinarily cant get the city garrison/guerilla promotions.Thats the nice thing about the Great walls +100% GG bonus,I think I ended up with 7 in my game.Im sure ive ended up with 12 or 13 before now with an IMP leader+GW.Getting your 3 in this time frame makes a huge difference as a settled GG in the Heroic epic city means you dont need to run FEUD or THEO to get troops to Lvl 2.

Great spys may not "fit" into a bulb path your planning,but in the same breath there not the end of the world either.If you dont want scotland yard you save him for a chain of golden ages if he drops around that time.If he drops earlier then what I tend to do is settle him if I intend to build the mids and run REP-gives a nice science boost early on when its most crucial.In another espionage thread players advise building scotland yard 1st or the infiltrate mission as the better choice-without the mids this would undoubtably be correct-with the mids im still not so sure.

I think seraiel said in an earlier post the importance of currency 1st,the gold you can beg/trade will enable you to run the slider at 100% to tech construction.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

oops, sorry, wrong button.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Btw, why accuracy? I always go with the one that increases collateral damage.

Accuracy saves time bombarding. Not only Castles but Walls as well and even regular culture. It also means you need less Catapults for the same task.
--> It's like having extra movement points and/or paying less maintenance on units.
In siege wars, bombardment and movement points are often the limiting factor (if troops are, then you are in dire straights).
Collateral is good if you use your Catapults to fight in the open field, e.g. to clear a stack of doom, e.g. within your own borders.
City raider gives your Cats better survival odds and, thus, is the preferred promotion. It will also wound the top defender better (which is important when other units attack).
If you're fighting against CG3 units, then actually wounding the top defender is a stake. It may warrant attacking with a high strength unit first.

TGW was an interesting choice because I'm saving the hammers/maintenance from not having to fogbust and have double the military power than you so that will aid somewhat in delaying any attacks from me.

I never really considered the cons of whipping (regrowth time and loss of tile). This time, I did consider it and I haven't actually whipped anything yet. Capital has 5/6 good tiles to work off the bat, so I decided against whipping the capital. Whether or not that was optimal, I don't quite know.

One negative aspect that I haven't thought about too much is the HUGE negative loss of getting a GSpy (and it diluting my future GS points). The first spy may not hurt so much compared to getting them a few times which could be a gamebreaker.

It's almost impossible to get anything other than a Great Spy if you rush the Great Wall with a PHI civ. It's actually hard to get anything other than 2 Great Spies
If there's no particular rush (as on this map), then you may consider getting a Library first and/or building the GW in a peripheral city (so the capital can produce the 1st Great Scientist)


On whipping, yes to all.
- Whipping loses you tile yields for as long as you need to regrow (losing a green mine for 4 turns = 12H lost ... which may be worth it),
- There's also an opportunity cost for not growing further. If you've got high enough of a happy cap and you whip that green mine, then you also lose the yield from the tile you would have grown onto, had you not whipped !
- If you whip a food positive tile (green farm or better), you also lose some yield. It's better to whip 6-->4 with 6 food surplus than it is to whip 4-->2 with 4 food surplus. Because regrowth !

However, whipping is a very strong mechanic and it doesn't always equate to a footshot :

Spoiler :

- You need a Granary to make it really worth it. Simply put : the granary doubles your city's food output. So it doubles the food to hammers conversion rate.
- Whipping speeds up the build. Whipping a tile in a city to unlock another tile in another city can be a bargain (e.g. whip green hill, unlock pigs).
- Sometimes there is little incentive for growth (stagnation coming up, lack of tiles, happy cap restrictions, etc.) and production should be maximized by whipping, specifically.

It's a little tough to compare because several different timelines are competing and they all come with their own return on investment rate.
- provided infinite resources, a single city will be most productive if you never whip it but rather grow it indefinitely instead.
- however, growth takes time : it delays production for a later time. Food stored is like stored production.
- if you produce an item (e.g. whipping), you open up different timelines elsewhere in your Empire (e.g. a worker chopping & improving tiles)

Then the question is : would I rather be working a tile here or there ?

If you're looking at a building, same reasoning : is the output from that building better than that of the tiles I'd whip ?
e.g. whipping a Library in a high commerce city, forgoing non-developped cottages is a yes.

(I hope that makes sense to you. It's a little tough to go into the intricacies of the whip.)

700 AD Attempt TWO Speedrun

-I was first to Code of Laws and Philosophy.
-Paper and CS both came at 50BC (bulbed Paper)

Well done, that's a good run, maintaining research while warring
Replaying has great learning value.

 

[Testhero]

It doesn't matter which stance an AI has towards you, when you share the same war, or if an AI is your Vassal.

And I wrote "take Accuracy against Castles" , because Accuracy greatly raises the bombardement-value of a Siege-weapon, and Castles usually need very long to bombard.

Yeah Accuracy rocks Vs castles. I usually Accuracy promote a half stack and rename them all Mangonel (catapult) so they are singled out exclusively for wall smashing. Ships are also alright for their higher base bombardment %

More collateral is only needed when you got very few Siege-weapons, like for the last cities of an opponent before you transform to newer Siege or Mounted, in the other cases it's better to promote to CR because it greatly increases the survival of the unit and stronger units also make more dmg.

Can you please elaborate?

• It greatly increases the survival of the unit

I thought City Raidrer promotions just offset the defenders bonuses.That would only seem to improve their survival chances if they arn't in the forlorn hope and had some chance of surviving their combat rounds anyway.

I get that they will potentially (RNG willing) deliver more damage to the defender they face as any net bonuses that exceed the defenders will add to the damage.

 

[Seraiel]

Can you please elaborate?

• It greatly increases the survival of the unit

I thought City Raidrer promotions just offset the defenders bonuses.That would only seem to improve their survival chances if they arn't in the forlorn hope and had some chance of surviving their combat rounds anyway.

I get that they will potentially (RNG willing) deliver more damage to the defender they face as any net bonuses that exceed the defenders will add to the damage.

I don't understand that question. Weaker opponent, better chance for the siege-weapon to survive. Doesn't matter what chances they have, even 1 to 3% is an increase, though Trebs and above have way better chances. Trebs are often about 40-50% without promotions, 50-60% with CR1, 60-75% with CR2 and CR3 promoted Trebs sometimes have up to 90% survival chance against units of their era.

I think you believe, that if a city has 20% cultural defense, that CR1 i. e. negates that, which is basically true, but if the city has 0% cultural defense, the 20% from CR still get subtracted from the opponents unit. There are a lot more bonuses than only cultural, and even if no bonus at all was in effect, CR would still subtract its value and make the enemy unit weaker. CR doesn't work against cultural-defense in specific, but against the enemy unit's strength.

Is that understandable?

 

[Revent]

Okay, thank you all for the input! Sorry I could not reply earlier as I just got back from a holiday. But I'll now be joining the Deity game you've posted up BiC

I definitely do need more experience in whipping rather than all whipping is good. Your explanation does put it into perspective!

 

[Benginal]

Here's a similar game from a few years ago, except we took the opposite approach, :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=372398