Immortal Minimalism, Chapter IV - Montezuma

[Nina]

Ouch! Peter stole your ivory! I can just see the feathers quivering on Monty's headdress as he holds back his murderous rage for the sake of peace: "must...not...declare...must...not..."

Ah well, no blood for the sacrificial altars in this game.

Hey, do the rules say whether you're allowed to bribe others into war with each other?

I wonder why Sitting Bull wouldn't trade you sailing?

 

[CreeDakota]

maybe the city will flip to you?

I think your in a tough spot and badly need a monopoly tech to dig out of it. Also meeting more AI's would likely be good thing as that would open up more trading partners. Scouting may actually = beakers in this instance.

Are you planning to avoid any trades with Peter to stay on SB good side?

Maybe try begging Agr off SB? The often will give you a pity tech after extorting something from you.

 

[coanda]

This is starting to look... grim. Very grim.

I think you're going to have to accept that you're not going to be tech leader or competitive in land this game - you'll be lucky to get 6 non-terrible cities. If you weren't so desperate for tech trades to keep from falling totally behind in the tech race, I'd recommend using your next monopoly tech to bribe Peter into attacking someone else... but as it is, I think you may have to just hope you get lucky with the RNG.

Sitting Bull is probably working on GLH (hence his being unwilling to trade Sailing). So hopefully that'll consume all his hammers for a while and keep him from expanding until it's too late.

I'm honestly not sure what to do about tech here. The two potential bulbs I see are a GS Philosophy bulb after Aesthetics -> Drama, or a GE Machinery bulb after grabbing Metal Casting. Either one of those might let you pick up a bunch of badly needed techs in trade; after that hopefully Pyramids will be starting to kick in and you'll be able to stagger along to Liberalism.

 

[yatta77]

Ouch! Peter stole your ivory! I can just see the feathers quivering on Monty's headdress as he holds back his murderous rage for the sake of peace: "must...not...declare...must...not..."

Ah ah... You see the skull on his head? Yep, that was the last guy reminded him that is previous skull was getting old, and Peter's skull would fit perfectly his head.

Hey, do the rules say whether you're allowed to bribe others into war with each other?

Of course! That's diplomacy!

I wonder why Sitting Bull wouldn't trade you sailing?

I still wonder. I guess he probably likes trade techs less than other leaders, and/or believes for some reason that sailing has some value if not shared. Other players knows leader attitudes better than me might answer this question in a more exhaustive way maybe.

maybe the city will flip to you?

It will eventually I guess, unless Peter spends a great artist in it.

I think your in a tough spot and badly need a monopoly tech to dig out of it. Also meeting more AI's would likely be good thing as that would open up more trading partners. Scouting may actually = beakers in this instance.

Yep! got to the same conclusions!
I firstly need to finish up the settler to secure the southern part of the island somehow. Then build workboats will be prioritized, and one will be sent to meet the missing 4 AIs for sure. I wonder if I should send the first one, since earlier I meet other AIs, better chances I have to get some more from trading alphabet.
By the way, thinking twice, the wheel + agriculture + archery offer by Sitting Bull wasn't so bad... oh well, I got a nice diplo bonus at least.

Are you planning to avoid any trades with Peter to stay on SB good side?

I want to be on the "second biggest guy" side, whoever he is, at the end of the game. So if Peter is going to be first, definitely! I still on the "wonder if I must take a side / wonder which side to take" phase, also because 50% of the AI are still missing...

Maybe try begging Agr off SB?

I thought that as well right after giving up on alphabet tribute request!
And switch research to (agriculture) >> the wheel was also another idea. I had many things in my mind at the moment, so I preferred save the game to think and read other thoughts a bit.

The often will give you a pity tech after extorting something from you.

Yep. from my experience, I can confirm! Especially Gandhi, Mansa, and such, will even fill up your (oldest part of the) tech tree by themselves once you get to friendly (usually from gifting a tech or giving up on a tribute tech request). As always, really good points in your comments!

I think you're going to have to accept that you're not going to be tech leader or competitive in land this game - you'll be lucky to get 6 non-terrible cities.

Uhm... tech lead is something so ephemeral. I mean, let's meet a couple of AIs missing alphabet, run few representation scientists, build the Great Library with a great engineer, and things would change fast.
Not that you are wrong, of course, but the game is long before the end.
The tech lead that matters, is first to mass media... we'll see.

(...)bribe Peter into attacking someone else... but as it is, I think you may have to just hope you get lucky with the RNG.

Uhm... and build few troops for sure!
No more instant game over Shaka attacks, please!

Sitting Bull is probably working on GLH (hence his being unwilling to trade Sailing). So hopefully that'll consume all his hammers for a while and keep him from expanding until it's too late.

The Great Lighthouse is gone already, and since a long while ago! I'm sure because is what I double checked before starting trading alphabet: make (reasonably) sure I would get sailing the next turn. In facts, everyone else, except Sitting Bull, trades it. By the way, if the previous turn I would trade iron working + fishing with Sitting Bull (instead of Kublai Khan), this turn I could trade sailing + agriculture + the wheel (I guess) with Kublai Khan.
I had bad luck (or bad knowledge of leader attitudes) in picking the first trade partner; picking the correct one, I would be in a lot better shape tech wise.
But not always bad things are bad!
I'm playing for diplomacy, and I got an early big diplomatic boost instead!

I'm honestly not sure what to do about tech here. The two potential bulbs I see are a GS Philosophy bulb after Aesthetics -> Drama, or a GE Machinery bulb after grabbing Metal Casting. Either one of those might let you pick up a bunch of badly needed techs in trade; after that hopefully Pyramids will be starting to kick in and you'll be able to stagger along to Liberalism.

Thanks! This is an interesting option I actually didn't think about.
Let's see if something / what else might get in from alphabet first.

---

Thanks all!
Any further comment is welcome.
I'll play a little bit more later today.

 

[Grimith]

The 500 invested into The Pyramids are certainly missed now. Peter settled in your face, and you still don't have any scouting information about who else is on this map or where to settle off-continent. If you had met more of the AIs, then you may have been able to get more from Alphabet. Maybe you still can.

I think your first priority (after finally settling your second city) is to build a Work Boat and scout this map. Finding new spots to settle would be great, but meeting the other AI is just as important. You're already playing with self-imposed restrictions; there's no need to keep semi-isolation on that list.

Obvious statement is obvious: Your tech situation is terrible, and Aesthetics alone won't save the day (Kublai Khan already has Aesthetics). It's possible scouting may reveal other poor techers on this map, but I would put more stock in getting a Great Scientist for a Philosophy bulb rather than hoping to find empires with bad research rates.

Offhand, I think Peter knows about your self-imposed restrictions. There's no way anyone should be allowed to live after blatantly settling in Montezuma's face.

Good luck salvaging this situation.

 

[yatta77]

(...)
Good luck salvaging this situation.

(cut the rest of the post since just above)
Thanks!

As always, a wise and balanced analysis from you!
We got about the same conclusions here, which are also about the same of CreeDakota's post above. To be honest, I just finished the next session, up to turn 122, 175AD. I did about what you are saying here, and met another couple of civilizations, one is an already annoyed Alexander...
However, thing went pretty well, I got agriculture somehow, and boosted my diplomacy with anyone else. I'm still in race I believe, I'm pretty good to catch up (I arrogantly think), and I enjoy challenges: so be ready for a next session update really soon, and for another session maybe later today!

I'll update with a complete report soon.

 

[Carboniferous]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't understand why you neither improved your seafood resources nor researched agriculture to improve the corn? I know this thread isn't about optimal tactics, but you didn't say you weren't going to improve food resources!

 

[yatta77]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't understand why you neither improved your seafood resources nor researched agriculture to improve the corn? I know this thread isn't about optimal tactics, but you didn't say you weren't going to improve food resources!

Thanks for the feedback!

But, please, don't introduce the issue as: it was planned to skip both agriculture and fishing.
We both know this is not true.

However, the main part of the answer to your comment is on post #24, here the link:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10662564&postcount=24

But then, after discovering bronze working, instead of researching as planned:
agriculture, fishing and the wheel
I thought was a worthy bet to research instead:
animal husbandry, writing and alphabet,
in order to discover horses if they are there, build a library, open borders, and be in a better position in tech trades.

Please consider that this is a real game, played in real time, at the first attempt: not an optimized walk-through.

And always keep in mind that the map is what it is, and I'm a player who won just 2 immortal games (one on a small map) for now, playing mostly for fun.

I'm not a master trying to teach anything: I do my best, but don't care about my games being perfect. I post what I achieve, no matter if nice or ugly to best players eyes.

So, you can expect to see way too maaaaaaaaaaaany more of those "badly played" errors in this series.

And of course, you are welcome to point them out sharing your opinions if you wish, as an academical talk.

I'm surely not quitting for a suspect of missing choosing the best tech path: it was probably weakly played, and I already pointed it out, but well, also if it was, I'm happy enough with this game, and I'm continuing playing.

I'm not afraid of challenges, neither to admit that I lost, if I'm going to lose.

And I hope you can enjoy to read about the game as well, anyways.

Thanks again for your post!

---

The write up is ready. The next session is going to be posted in few minutes from now.

 

[yatta77]

Session 3, turn 122, 175AD
(first attempt, no cheats, no reloads)


Loading screen... kind of funny.

Ok, let's check if Sitting Bull is willing to gift agriculture: no, is not.
Did ask more than once, in the following turns.

Overview: another great scientist has been born somewhere.
The worker is chopping a jungle to start freeing up some grasslands.
Cautious Peter is 6 turns away from construction. Darius I is Hindu.
The Aztecs are still 25 turns away from aesthetics.

Overview: another great scientist has been born somewhere.
Taoism has been founded somewhere.

Peter asking to stop trading with Sitting Bull: no my friend.

Yep, Peter didn't like the answer. But he still cautious for now.

The settler is finally ready in the capital, next a workboat, but...
Aaargh... what does that Sitting Bull galley on the island southern coasts mean?
A settler is there to steal Aztecs lands? Come on, that would be so a bit too much ironic...
in the exact turn the Aztec settler is ready!

Glance: wow! The Aztecs have 3 pleased leaders now: Sitting Bull, Darius I, and Kublai Khan.

Ok, let's check if Darius I is willing to gift agriculture: no, is not.
Did ask more than once, in the following turns.

Ok, let's check if Kublai Khan is willing to gift agriculture: no, is not.
Did ask more than once, in the following turns.

Overview: ok, the Native American galley went eventually away. But remember this galley!
The settler is now ready to settle (what else a settler can do?) the next city.
The worker is chopping another jungle. Peter discovered construction.

City screen: work the lake, and a library first.

Overview: cautious Peter is researching aesthetics next.
The first workboat is ready in the capital and starts exploring, another workboat is planned next.
The second city is connected to the capital without roads, without rivers, and without sailing.
Let's check... nope, not fishing "inside cultural borders" sea trade route path here. Unless...

Yep! The lake tile count as a connection between two other separated sea-tile zones! Somehow funny!

Overview: Kublai Khan converts to Hinduism, the workboat leaves the cultural borders starting its journey.

Overview: Christianity has been founded somewhere, and the Colossus has been built somewhere.
The worker, after chopping a couple of jungles, starts mining the grassland hill next to the second city.

Overview: the workboat exploring toward west, since all the 3 known civilizations come from east.
Remember the Native American galley? Well it just dropped a settler somewhere else!

Capital city: second workboat ready creating fishing boats on the first of three clams in capital CFC.
The city drops the unimproved corn to work the clam instead. Other two workboats are planned next.

Overview: another great prophet has been born somewhere.
Peter already discovered aesthetics, while the Aztecs still 9 turns away from discovering it.
The third workboat is ready to drop the finishing nets on the second clam in the capital CFC.
The worker after finishing up the first mine in the second city CFC,
starts chopping a jungle onto a mine on the other grassland hill next to that city.

Capital city screen: the city, size 3, is growing working the two clams tiles and the iron mine.
The city starts the fourth and last workboat this turn.

After begging Sitting Bull, Darius I and Kublai Khan so long for agriculture,
suddenly somehow Darius first showed up gifting meditation! Which is even better, you'll see.

Overview: another great merchant and another great artist (music?) have been born somewhere.
This really starts look like everybody is getting tons of great people, except for the Aztecs!
Cautious Peter is researching Priesthood, and is just one turn away from it.

Glance screen: 3 pleased (+5 Sitting Bull; +3 Kublai Khan; +2 Darius I), and 1 cautious (+2 Peter).

The workboat met the first unknown buddy: Alexander the annoyed.
Yep, ok, he's worst enemy of Sitting Bull... but nobody's worst enemy... so why that -4?
Not opening the borders with this loser guy, to keep good relations with Sitting Bull.

Here the Alexander workboat. The Aztecs workboat still have 1 movement point so let's discover...
see that orange border bordering the fog area? Guess who's there! The answer few images below.

Technologies screen: from here, seems like nobody of those known leaders discovered music yet.
Alexander, how expected is not willing to trade anything, besides I have nothing to offer.
But that meditation now is possible trade with Sitting Bull, so let's take the opportunity!

Here the deal with Sitting bull: agriculture for meditation.

Ah ah... you knew about the orange matey. Yep! The Dutch, Willem.
Cautious, nobody's worst enemy: let's open borders!

Glance: 3 pleased (Sitting Bull, Kublai, Darius), 2 cautious (Peter, Willem), 1 annoyed (Alexander).

Overview of Aztecs lands. Time to think about what next now.

---


End session.
Next task: build an army.


Save attached.


Please, anyone shadowing this game:
Don't post about your results, not even in spoilers, if including any detail I shouldn't know.
I'd like to discuss this game with other members of the forum, and I don't wish it to be ruined by spoilers.
With info from other games available, is hard for people to remember what I'm supposed to know, and what I'm not.
So, post a shadow before I finish my game, only if/when is not revealing anything I didn't already discover.
Once I'm finished, anyways, it will be plenty of time to post and comment about other attempts on this same map.
Thanks for understanding this.


Comments?

 

[huerfanista]

Ok, let's check if Darius I is willing to gift agriculture: no, is not.
Did ask more than once, in the following turns.

You might want to read this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6224468&postcount=12

You really want to wait at least 30 turns before asking for another gift from an AI. Repeated requests without waiting practically guarantees that you will be turned down.

 

[Noogai]

I SIPed and got The Great Lighthouse at 1600BC.
If I remember correctly, this is what I did: First tech fishing and start building worker. Change to work boat after getting fishing (and start working 1f2h tile) and finish worker after work boat. After worker build lighthouse and after that start building TGL. I didn't sacrife population in order to finish it faster.

Tech path: Fishing, Mining, Sailing, Masonry, BW..

Spoiler :

I got Great Merchant from it later and used it to make 1100g trade mission.

 

[Noogai]

By the way the pyramid path + taking all that food with capital was an interesting choice. It doesn't seem to work out too well (according to the tech rate you have) though? You only need to be the first one finishing UN so maybe you can tech fast enough with rep + bulbs later..? I'm interested to see how you will work this out.

 

[yatta77]

You really want to wait at least 30 turns before asking for another gift from an AI. Repeated requests without waiting practically guarantees that you will be turned down.

Wow! Thanks!
If I understood it correctly, it doesn't matter if the request is accepted or declined.
First thing you learn here, in this section of the forum:
"what you know about the game, is nothing compared to what you might know".
Definitely an appreciated feedback! Thanks!

I SIPed and got The Great Lighthouse at 1600BC.
If I remember correctly, this is what I did: First tech fishing and start building worker. Change to work boat after getting fishing (and start working 1f2h tile) and finish worker after work boat. After worker build lighthouse and after that start building TGL. I didn't sacrife population in order to finish it faster.

Tech path: Fishing, Mining, Sailing, Masonry, BW..

1) Thanks for shadowing and sharing the results!
2) Thanks for making sure to don't reveal, for now, anything more than what we all already know about the map and the game!
3) if you will finish the game and can be patient enough, I'll likely finish my game in less than a week, so your complete shadow then would be very welcome!

I got Great Merchant from it later and used it to make 1100g trade mission.

In any case, please keep those saves to post them later, if you can!

By the way the pyramid path + taking all that food with capital was an interesting choice. It doesn't seem to work out too well (according to the tech rate you have) though? You only need to be the first one finishing UN so maybe you can tech fast enough with rep + bulbs later..? I'm interested to see how you will work this out.

Yeah, this is about the idea:
the only thing that matters is high + in diplomacy with most of the civilizations, and the UN at home
we'll see how it works out
Thanks for the feedback!

---

I might play a bit more tonight.

 

[Noogai]

1) Thanks for shadowing and sharing the results!
2) Thanks for making sure to don't reveal, for now, anything more than what we all already know about the map and the game!
3) if you will finish the game and can be patient enough, I'll likely finish my game in less than a week, so your complete shadow then would be very welcome!

I'm a bit lazy to share so much (unlike you).. I'm probably going to finish this a long time before you do, so I'll probably save some key-points (like liberalism) etc stuff and post it all at once after you finish this. Or not, we'll see.

In any case, please keep those saves to post them later, if you can!

E: nevermind

E2: I don't save my saves, I just make one (sometimes more though) and then overwrite it when ever I exit the game.

Yeah, this is about the idea:
the only thing that matters is high + in diplomacy with most of the civilizations, and the UN at home
we'll see how it works out
Thanks for the feedback!

That's how I thought it too.. Though I'm also trying to get 6 decent cities to get some of those important national wonders too.
Thanks for the feedback to my feedback

 

[yatta77]

I'm probably going to finish this a long time before you do

Ok, to keep it simple!
Just wait for me to meet all AIs an discover Paper and trade a bit of maps.
After the big majority of the map is revealed and I met everybody, unless you think you would share some info I shouldn't know, feel free to post your saves and results.

 

[coanda]

This game has moved far beyond my skill level. Maybe you or one of the terrifying experts here on the forum can still transform it into victory (I was convinced that 4 cities + 1 worker cultural wasn't going to work, and even though you lost it almost did work!). But I'm just stumped here. It's fallen far enough behind in tech that I can't even see a way to bulb trade-bait techs any more, so getting caught up in tech is likely only coming from pity-gifts and self-researching.

Here is one thing I'm thinking though. This game is desperate. That means it's time to take chances that would be reckless and unnecessary if the game was going better. So I say, skip the army. If you get DoW'd at this point, you're going to lose regardless of whether you've tried to get an army or not. I think it's time for the very rare... RLX: Rapid Late Expansion!

 

[yatta77]

This game has moved far beyond my skill level. Maybe you or one of the terrifying experts here on the forum can still transform it into victory (I was convinced that 4 cities + 1 worker cultural wasn't going to work, and even though you lost it almost did work!). But I'm just stumped here. It's fallen far enough behind in tech that I can't even see a way to bulb trade-bait techs any more, so getting caught up in tech is likely only coming from pity-gifts and self-researching.

Here is one thing I'm thinking though. This game is desperate. That means it's time to take chances that would be reckless and unnecessary if the game was going better. So I say, skip the army. If you get DoW'd at this point, you're going to lose regardless of whether you've tried to get an army or not. I think it's time for the very rare... RLX: Rapid Late Expansion!

Oh... come on!
I understand your doubts, but this map is hard for Montezuma as for any other leader.
Ok, it will be hard, but this is too much pessimism!

I remember TMIT saying once something about teach trading being in the few things not snowballing.
I believe there is some wisdom and truth in this.

I believe focusing on the goal this game has a chance: a little one maybe, but still.

It would be a boring Saturday without this forum and Civ IV, so, to be honest, I already played another 10 (or so) turns session, I'll post about soon.

<in-game trash talk >

Well, I got 6 (IIRC) more techs (not gifted, researched or traded):
aesthetics, polytheism, the wheel, archery, priesthood, and pottery.
The capital finished up the workboats, trained a warrior for the second city, and is almost done with a worker.
Is running a scientist since few (6 or 7 IIRC) turns already.
The AIs are spending great people for bulbs? Ok, then they are lost baby!
AIs can't still forever generating a great person/turn (or they can? )

A couple of workers will chop the jungle, farm and road connect everything quickly on the island.
The cities will grow fast, and run scientists, which will settle as representation great scientists.
And I will have few archers soon: I wish to finish up this game building UN, or missing it.

Literature will be in in 7 turns, the first great engineer is ready to hurry the great library, if I wish to.
And literature will bring even more tech trade: sailing above all (Sitting Bull is so stubborn!).
I already discovered a close spot that should be safe for a city, the Russian one will eventually culture flip.
Education will likely be the key, Oxford will be late for everybody, so 2 mines each city will be a must.
And with 7 out of 8 civilization met, the diplomacy is going over any optimistic prevision.

Then I will likely lost the game anyways, but game over by now, no way IMO.
Unless considering not worth to finish whatever has <33% chances of success.

<//in-game trash talk >

 

[yatta77]

Session 4, turn 132, 425AD
(first attempt, no cheats, no reloads)


Glance: Peter is pleased too now!

From the above link huerfanista posted:

Each turn from the moment you meet an AI, you accumulate more points towards this threshold which means that if you wait longer, you can ask for bigger value items. (and avoid getting auto-declined by not giving the AI enough time to forget)

So... since Peter was never asked for, let's ask for a tech! What about the Wheel?
Nope. Oh well, let's wait now. As described in that article.

Overview of the Aztecs island: the cities were renamed Clamcorn (the capital) and Dyelake.
Clamcorn borders expanded again, revealing a fish resource: if possible, Fisherhill will be the next city.
The last workboat was completed, and moved towards the last clam of Clamcorn CFC.
Waiting to reach size 4 to train another worker, Clamcorn is now training a warrior in 2 turns.
Peter is 5 turns away from discovering monarchy; the Aztecs are 4 turns away from aesthetics.

Dyelake reached size 2, and started to work the mined grassland hill (plus the lake tile as before).
The city keeps on building the library, waiting for few farms to grow and a second mine to increase hammers.

Willem asked to stop trading with Darius I, his worst enemy. No way: the Persians are Aztecs buddies!

Another great prophet has been born somewhere. Seems like Darius discovered feudalism.
The workboat drops the fishing net on that last clam.

Relation screen: yep, Willem didn't like Aztecs refusal. However, he still cautious.

Here the first workboat meeting a new buddy! Pacal II. Cautious, no worst enemies, open borders agreement.
That's the seventh (eight with the Aztecs) civilization. Just one more is missing now.

Glance: 4 pleased, 2 cautious, 1 annoyed. And just one lower than 0, the annoyed Alexander.

Overview: Clamcorn reached size 4, the warrior is ready, next, as planned, a worker.
Another great scientist has been born somewhere. Peter still researching monarchy.

A bit of micro in Clamcorn, now size 4: 3 improved clams tiles and run one scientist.
The mine was dropped (2 extra turns to complete the worker) to accelerate the research a bit.
The first great person will born 5 turns from now: that's late! However: 100% great engineer at the moment.

Technologies screen: Sitting Bull is the only one known missing aesthetics; as earlier he doesn't trade sailing.

His offer: priesthood, the wheel and archery for aesthetics. The Aztecs feel robbed and refuse. Gambling again.

Next tech path: polytheism (4 turns) >> literature (8 turns). The Great Library is a quite valuable option now.

Overview: the second warrior moved from Clamcorn to garrison Dyelake.
The worker still chopping the jungle into a mine on the jungle grassland hill.
Another great scientist has been born somewhere. Peter discovered monarchy.

Overview: the worker finished up the mine on the grassland hill.
Next the worker will start farming the grassland tile west from the lake.
The scout is moving back towards Clamcorn, since Dyelake is warrior garrisoned now.
Peter adopts hereditary rule, and starts researching calendar, in 7 turns, now.
Another great scientist has been born somewhere.

Explorer workboat: coast, 1 food, 4 commerce. This is an interesting detail (the Colossus is near here).

Overview: the worker starts farming the grassland tile next to the lake, irrigating towards the corn.
Peter is 5 turns from discovering calendar, the Aztecs are 1 turn away from discovering polytheism.
Sitting Bull converts to Judaism. Time to make a state-religion diplomacy recap:
- Pacal II founded Judaism, and now Sitting Bull converted to it as well;
- Alexander founded Hinduism, and both Kublai Khan and Darius I converted to it;
- Willem founded Buddhism, and he is alone for now, but a civilization is still missing;
- Peter (as the Aztecs) don't have a state religion yet (the Aztecs don't even have a religion in a city).

Clamcorn, size 4 training a worker, is 1 turn from generating the first great person: 87% engineer, 13% scientist.

Overview: polytheism was discovered, next task is literature, as planned.
A great engineer was born in Clamcorn. A funny note: if you wonder about it, it would bulb the wheel!
The worker still farming the grassland tile next to the lake. The scout is now sleeping in Clamcorn.

Technologies screen: Sitting Bull is still missing aesthetics, while Peter is missing polytheism.

Deal with Peter: the wheel for polytheism. Ah! It saved the great engineer! (Joking, of course!)

Overview: the worker keeps on farming the grassland next to the lake.
Peter is now only 3 turns away from discovering calendar. The Aztecs are 7 turns away from discovering literature.
Another great prophet has been born somewhere.

Sitting Bull still be stubborn on sailing, but now at least pottery is available since the wheel was discovered.
Here the deal with Sitting Bull: priesthood, pottery and archery for aesthetics. Wait was a worth gamble after all!

Hare the technologies screen after the deal. Seems like something else might be traded in from literature as well.

Here an overview on the western lands and seas the explorer workboat unveiled so far.

And that's the final overview of the Atzecs empire for this session. Time to think, and hear people opinions.

---


End session.


Save attached.


Please, anyone shadowing this game:
Don't post about your results, not even in spoilers, if including any detail I shouldn't know.
I'd like to discuss this game with other members of the forum, and I don't wish it to be ruined by spoilers.
With info from other games available, is hard for people to remember what I'm supposed to know, and what I'm not.
So, post a shadow before I finish my game, only if/when is not revealing anything I didn't already discover.
Once I'm finished, anyways, it will be plenty of time to post and comment about other attempts on this same map.
Thanks for understanding this.


Comments?

 

[Carboniferous]

Thanks for the feedback!

Maybe I missed it, but I don't understand why you neither improved your seafood resources nor researched agriculture to improve the corn? I know this thread isn't about optimal tactics, but you didn't say you weren't going to improve food resources!

But, please, don't introduce the issue as: it was planned to skip both agriculture and fishing.
We both know this is not true.

Chill out dude - I wasn't criticising your game - it was just a simple question. (Hey - you have won at least one game on immortal - which is more than me!). But I didn't actually say that - in fact I said the opposite - (that you didn't plan to skip both those techs) - which was why I asked.

For what it's worth, I would have thought a better path to get the pyramids quickly would have been to improve either the corn or the seafood - and whip workers/workboats/settlers with overflow into the pyramids. This gets more use out of the surplus food - since you were working the 3F corn throughout - which was pretty painful to see.

 

[yatta77]

Chill out dude - I wasn't criticising your game - it was just a simple question. (Hey - you have won at least one game on immortal - which is more than me!). But I didn't actually say that - in fact I said the opposite - (that you didn't plan to skip both those techs) - which was why I asked.

You are free to criticize my game!
And I'm sorry of I sounded pissed or something, but I was not!
Since I got that reply twice in a row (check few previous posts), I was just pointing out (to all) that this is not going to be a perfect flawless game, as anyone of this series, and that my intent here it is not to teach: if I play badly it's part of it.
It was not an attack to your post.
And please consider also English not being my first language!

EDIT: and I wished also clearly distinguish (to all) the goal (run 'mids representation) from the cost (postpone agriculture and fishing). And say that I'm aware it might likely not be worth it, and that maybe there are better way to achieve that.
But this is the way I can play to have at least a tiny chance. //EDIT

For what it's worth, I would have thought a better path to get the pyramids quickly would have been to improve either the corn or the seafood - and whip workers/workboats/settlers with overflow into the pyramids. This gets more use out of the surplus food - since you were working the 3F corn throughout - which was pretty painful to see.

If you feel like it, shadow it, as Noogai, please!
If you get the 'mids before turn 89, post about it (make sure to don't say anything I didn't discover already, but turn 89 should be pretty safe, unless you meet the missing AI). Somebody already asked for it, and I'm definitely curious about it as well!