Immortal Minimalism, Chapter IV - Montezuma

[Zechnophobe]

Hmm.

Fishing - Agri - Mining - Sailing?

Worker - interrupt with WorkBoat - Second Workboat - Finish worker.

I have suspicion that whenever you would 'grow on warrior' you should 'grow on galley, especially once a mine or two is up. Diplomacy starts early, and you need contact, and you need to find and take the 'good' land. Hammers are everything in this kind of game.

 

[Grimith]

Grimith, a noob question: why do you suggest starting a worker at turn 0, then stopping production on the worker to start a work boat on turn 7?

I don't think you asked a noob question. Assume we SIP:

- Given the map settings and starting location, Fishing should be the first tech we research. Fishing's required for Sailing, it's required to work water tiles, and it's required to build Work Boats.
- Until we research Fishing, we need to build something in our capital. We will want a Worker eventually, so we should build a Worker until we can build a Work Boat.
- If we build the Work Boat as planned on Turn 7, it will be finished on Turn 17. It can immediately improve a clam resource, yielding 4F2C. In comparison, the Worker would finish on Turn 15, but it would take until Turn 20 for it to farm the grass corn (5F yield) or mine the plains hill (4H yield). The corn's a weaker tile improvement than the clams, and the mine - while important - can't feed itself.
- In order to even make use of the Worker, we would need Agriculture, Mining, or Bronze Working. While I recommended Mining and Bronze Working (Mining's required for Masonry; BW for chops to put into The Great Lighthouse and to clear the other on-continent hill), Agriculture is an out-of-the-way tech which would stall building TGL. Work Boats, on the other hand, only require Fishing.

Hope that helped you understand my reasoning.

 

[shyuhe]

The clams are probably better tiles than the unirrigated corn. If you get a lighthouse set up, you probably won't work the corn for a long time.

 

[yatta77]

Gratz on the Roman game, BTW. I didn't post but I sure was lurking. Your threads are great!

Wow, thanks, appreciated!

Firstly I hope you are not blaming me for breaking your 100% loss record on this series. I guess it would be no fun if you won every game.

Ah ah... just say you want some credit! (and you deserve it of course! )

Well done for the Roman win.

Thanks!

Are you allowing a Cheese Ap victory? Un would be more tougher.
Culture might be more interesting especially on this kind of map where cottages may not be in great supply.

Nope. No AP. Only UN.
Try culture if I'll see UN is impossible, but I guess I'll stick with UN diplo (and lose) anyways.

why do you suggest starting a worker at turn 0, then stopping production on the worker to start a work boat on turn 7?

Welcome back!
I guess your question had more than enough kind and complete answers already!
However, here my synthetic version: fishing (needed for workboats) is not an Aztecs starting tech.

Tiny island archipelago is not fun

Oh, come on!
Fractal is about luck! Archipelago is not fun! Continent is bad for diplo!
Always pangea?
Change a bit gives some variety!

(...)

Look's who's back, the first ever poster in the series! Cool!
(uhm... man, I start talking like a popstar. Ok, that's it, serious and modest from now on).

Ah yes, that peacemongering diplomatic genius Montezuma. Let me just pull up a chair here...

Cool!
But don't relax too much, I'll need your help before the end here!

One thing I often forget to do on water maps that's important is get a barb-galley defense. When you get Metal Casting, you'll probably want to build a trireme.

Good point! Better remember that!

If there's only one land tile NE-NE from the settler, then I don't think you should worry about putting a city there given your self-imposed limit of six cities. Furthermore, I think it's too difficult to justify moving considering the lack of production available to you. Losing that off-continent grass/forest/hill is a big deal in the early game as well as settling on one of your few forests. If you make The Great Lighthouse a priority (which you should for AI denial), then you'll want the production to get it at a reasonable time. (...)

You should be able to get the GLH if you focus. It generally doesn't go very early.
Tech fishing-agri-mining-BW-sailing-masonry. Start a warrior until fishing comes in and then switch to a wb. Back to the warrior and then a worker. The problem with worker first is that he will run out of things to do while waiting for BW.

(...)

(...)

SIP looks like the right choice here. (...)

The clams are probably better tiles than the unirrigated corn. If you get a lighthouse set up, you probably won't work the corn for a long time.

Hmm.
Fishing - Agri - Mining - Sailing?
Worker - interrupt with WorkBoat - Second Workboat - Finish worker.
I have suspicion that whenever you would 'grow on warrior' you should 'grow on galley, especially once a mine or two is up. Diplomacy starts early, and you need contact, and you need to find and take the 'good' land. Hammers are everything in this kind of game.

I guess I cited at least the nick of all the welcomed advisors (if I forgot someone, I apologize ).

Thanks all for all the nice and enlightening advice (I've been reading everything).

You know, when like there is a big huge arrow indicating "wise way!" and you feel like it is too obvious to be true?
And pick the opposite path? Which you know is likely worse, but you think you'll deal better with?
Ok, to make it short, sorry all, I'll try a completely different opening than the one widely suggested.

Here my line of thoughts:

1) what is that capital good for?
- not production
- not cottages (or high commerce) tiles
- yep, food!

2) what is a high food (only) city good for?
- Gp farm

3) where to settle in this case?
- on the forest 1se, to gain even more food in the GP farm
- on the forest 1se, to grab the most land tiles, and the most "not oversea" land tiles possible
- on the forest 1se, to make sure we are not settling on an high hammer resource!
(hoping for bronze! but whatever on that plain hill or the "settler" plain would just be great)

4) what is GP farms main trouble, especially in the early game?
- happiness cap

5) what wonder would help increasing happiness and synergize well with a GP farm?
- yep, here we are again: Pyramids.

6) are Pyramids possible here?
- Tech path: mining >> masonry >> bronze working
- Production: worker >> Stonehenge (gold failure) >> Pyramids
(no time for discovering fishing and building workboats)

7) How this will work?
- Pyramids in by turn 75 maybe, if my math is correct. Earlier if copper, of course.

So...
Work 3 food tile, worker first, discover mining then start researching masonry.
Worker ready, move to plain hill, start a mine, start Stonehenge.
Discover masonry, start researching bronze working, start Pyramids.
Hit size 2, work the mine when ready.
Discover bronze working, chop the grass hill into a mine, grow up to size 5 (happy cap, right?).
At size 5:
- city (2food,1hammer)
- 1 corn (3food)
- 2 forest (4food,2hammers)
- 1 grass hill (1food,3hammers)
- 1 plain hill (4hammers)
Total: 10 food, 10 hammers / turn
It should be enough. Arrrgh... stupid scout! I need to build a warrior as well (for defense/happiness).
Ok, forget Stonehenge gold failure. And extend 'mids to "before turn 80".

Then...
Switch to representation.
Tech path: agriculture* >> fishing* >> animal husbandry (horse(?) hammers!) >> writing >> sailing(?).
*whichever first.
Production: workboats, settler, library, galley(?).
Improve: corn, any other new resource that will hopefully pop up.
And wait for a nice great engineer.

That's how I gonna do it, I hope. Like it?

I guess for most of the players that's just unworthy.
But I feel confident to be a good deal advancing in the game.

Another note: TGL bonus ends with Astronomy IIRC. Pyramids bonus never dies.

Now, future plans:
- alphabet, philosophy, liberalism (pick astronomy), electricity, mass media, maybe computer (internet).
- capital NW: Oxford + National Epic, running tons of scientists (maybe the Great Library?)

That's about it for now I guess.

Yeah, redundant well known path for this series, but I'm scared to miss mass media in other ways.

Comments?

 

[Nina]

Thanks all for all the nice and enlightening advice (I've been reading everything).

You know, when like there is a big huge arrow indicating "wise way!" and you feel like it is too obvious to be true?
And pick the opposite path? Which you know is likely worse, but you think you'll deal better with?
Ok, to make it short, sorry all, I'll try a completely different opening than the one widely suggested.

And this is exactly why I've been enjoying this series so much!

Yatta, why would gold failure from trying Stonehenge be a good thing? I know you went for that a couple of times in your previous games, too, and I wasn't clear why it was desirable. For the research boost that the gold brings, by allowing you to bump the slider up for a while?

Great Lighthouse doesn't obsolete until Corporation, iirc.

 

[Nina]

lymond, LeftAdjoint, and Grimith, thanks for the kind answers to my question! I totally get the reasoning now; makes perfect sense. Didn't help that I was forgetting Monty doesn't start with fishing!

 

[lymond]

Wonder fail gold allows you to either keep the slider high or fund expansion, or warfare....whatever you are going for early game before currency. This becomes even more useful on higher levels with such high maintenance costs.

 

[Grimith]

@yatta77,

I understand your reasoning behind wanting the Pyramids; you're going to be limited in horizontal expansion, so you want to get as much vertical expansion as you can, and Representation would greatly help you in achieving that goal. However, I think your calculations are too optimstic, and you don't have a legitimate shot at nabbing the Pyramids. Consider this:

- You will not grow optimally to size five without an improved food resource.
- At size four, your capital will have one . At size five, it will have two .
- If you build a Worker first while researching Mining > Masonry > Bronze Working, the Worker will sit idle for over ten turns.
- You need to build a Warrior before you can support size five without .

With those facts in mind, I would be surprised if you built the Pyramids before Turn 90 (625 BC), presuming you could even finish the wonder before another AI. You're not Industrious, you don't have stone, and you have few in your proposed BFC for building the Pyramids. You could counteract some of the problems you'll face by researching Agriculture first (thus allowing your Worker to improve the corn quickly), but that will delay your Bronze Working time.

Now, I admit, since you'll be limited to six cities, building TGL (which obsoletes with Corporation) isn't as high of a draw as it would otherwise be on this map - that's why I suggested it for AI denial more than for improving your own empire. However, unlike the Mids, you at least have a reasonable shot at getting TGL.

I don't know, though. The AI does a poor job with production on water-heavy maps, and you might be facing a set of opponents which don't emphasize building wonders. You might have a better chance of getting the Mids than I think.

 

[huerfanista]

Wonders often go very slow on archipelago maps. For example, I've seen the 'mids go well into the ADs many times on this map type.

 

[Killroyan]

First things first. The scout needs to go 1SE to see if there is room enough for another city. If it is a really small country then settling in place is silly since you would loose the corn which is a big shame. The lower 2 jungle grass land tiles look like they have a coast line indicating that it propably is going to be tight over there but then again that never stopped you from settling Yatta in your previous games

If you should settle in place and teching fishing and got nothing to build you can always invest in stonehenge. Maybe you might even get lucky

 

[yatta77]

And this is exactly why I've been enjoying this series so much!

Wow! Thanks!

Yatta, why would gold failure from trying Stonehenge be a good thing? I know you went for that a couple of times in your previous games, too, and I wasn't clear why it was desirable. For the research boost that the gold brings, by allowing you to bump the slider up for a while?

lymond already kindly answered here.

Wonder fail gold allows you to either keep the slider high or fund expansion, or warfare....whatever you are going for early game before currency. This becomes even more useful on higher levels with such high maintenance costs.

However I'll dare add a couple of personal specific silly notes.

1) about this specific case, IIRC:

mining >> 8 turn + masonry (with overflow and with [OR]* extra bonus from mining) >> 10 turns.

Worker >> 15 turns.

In 3 turns you can start a settler, a second worker, or a warrior, then switch to Pyramids.
But when the 'mids will be ready, about 50 turns later, those 3 hammers on a unit in queue are lost.
Yep, after a while those "started something" hammers start to decrease, and eventually disappear all.
And on units faster than on buildings or wonders.
So start an extremely early wonder as Stonehenge, hoping for someone else to finish it soon...
...would get 3 gold instead of nothing! No big deal, but still nice.

This game wasn't possible, as you can read from my previous post, since the Aztecs start with hunting.
So, to avoid +1, I had to build a warrior before starting the 'mids.

2) after currency:

Apparently build wealth is better, since you get the gold sooner; but sometimes wonder fails get more.
Starting a wonder with a +100% bonus resource available, or being industrious:

you get more hammers / turn in the wonder than gold / turn building wealth (!)

Now, it is then about choices:
- if sooner is better (gold is needed now!), then build wealth;
- if more is better (the city would build wealth because has nothing better to do), then wonder fail.

Hoping that this makes sense in English... :confuse:

*[OR] bonus: for each teach you research, you get a % bonus, on your science output, for each requisite tech you have already discovered. Some requisite are [AND], you must have that tech, as the case of monarchy (and) theology to research divine right; some other requisite are [OR], you must have just one of those techs, as the case of mining (or) mysticism to research masonry. But researching masonry having already discovered both the [OR] requisites, it is faster since it gets 2 bonus instead of just one. The same with any other tech: the more requisite you have already discovered, both AND and OR, the faster it will be. I hope this is understandable.

Ah... an all this: just my silly opinion and is limited to my knowledge, if anyone else wants to correct / complete it, please do!

Great Lighthouse doesn't obsolete until Corporation, iirc.

Yep, you remember better than me. Thanks!

@yatta77, (...)

Not citing everything since your exhaustive post is just above, but thanks a lot!
This feedback helped a lot planning for the 'mids better, especially the health issue which I din't think about and you correctly pointed out!

I don't know, though. The AI does a poor job with production on water-heavy maps, and you might be facing a set of opponents which don't emphasize building wonders. You might have a better chance of getting the Mids than I think.

Wonders often go very slow on archipelago maps. For example, I've seen the 'mids go well into the ADs many times on this map type.

Best way to know it, it is to try it out maybe?

(...)

Thanks for keeping of following this, I've read (and take note) also the post in the chapter III thread.

First session already played. I'll post about it in few minutes!

 

[yatta77]

Session I, turn 88, 675BC
(first attempt, no cheats, no reloads)


My computer crashed to desktop right after 2400BC, I had to reload from an autosave a couple of turns earlier.
I re-did exactly the same moves and choices, to hopefully avoid any possible different butterfly effect.
Both, autosave and final save, are attached in the post below.


Moved the scout 1e. Discovered a lake. Moved the settler as planned.

Tech path as planned: mining >> masonry >> bronze working

Yep, the capital city was founded where planned as well. Worker first.

A bit of scouting in the south, and the culture pop up in the capital.
Two happy resources: good!

Southern scouting completed. That fish is too far away.

Northern scouting completed. This is about Aztecs island.
Buddhism has been founded somewhere.

And Hinduism has been founded somewhere as well.
Worker completed and ready to move on the plain hill, next a warrior.

Here the capital city screen: let's grow the city for now.

Masonry discovered, next bronze working. The worker still mining the hill.
The scout moved back to fortify in the most far away hill of the island:
this will avoid barbarians, and increase the chances to meet some other civilization.

Finished the first hill, the worker is now sleeping waiting bronze working discovery
to chop that forest on the grassland hill into a mine.

Capital city up to size 2, working the unimproved corn and the plain mine now.

Warrior trained, turn 26, let's start building the Pyramids.

Tile switch: I first thought to synchronize with when the second mine will be ready.
Then I thought it was too much work and just grow up the city to size 3 a bit quicker.
So I dropped the mine, to work a forest grassland. The second corn would save another turn.
Again, it was complicated to do the math on what would be the best micro, so I just picked a tile.

Judaism has been founded somewhere and the capital city reached size 3.

Health cap: waiting for the second mine, the capital works two grassland forests and the plain mine.
The city, size 3 and stagnant, outputs 7 hammers / turn.

Bronze working discovered, and no copper in sight. Next animal husbandry hoping in some horses.

With the bronze working technology the worker start to chop a forest into a mine on the grassland hill.

Mine ready, and 20 extra hammers dropped into the Pyramids in the capital city.

The capital now works an unimproved corn, and two mines: one on a grassland and one a plain hill.
The city, size 3 and stagnant, outputs now 8 hammers / turn.

The worker starts chopping a northern forest to add 10 hammers into the Pyramids.

The worker finished to chop: 10 hammers are dropped into the Pyramids the capital city is building.

Animal husbandry discovered, and no horses in sight. Next writing to open borders and build libraries.

Overview of the Aztec island: the capital city border expanded.
The worker moves back south, approaching the southern forests.

The worker start chopping a southern forest, for a miserable gain of 8 hammers to drop into the Pyramids.

After finishing chopping the first southern forest, the worker moves up on the second one.

The Oracle has been built somewhere, and the worker starts chopping the next forest, on a grassland hill.

Peter, the first AI met, shows up.

Yep, there is a Russian city on the island north-east from the Aztec capital.

The worker finished chopping the second southern forest, for a lousy gain of just 6 hammers.

Since the capital borders expanded, the scout changed hill to fortify, maximizing the un-fogged tiles.
The worker moves back north-east, toward the capital and the corn tiles.

---


30 images per post limit reached, the session continues in the post below...

 

[yatta77]

session 1, continuing...


Russia is connected for trade. Peter adopts slavery. The worker sleeps on the corn tile.

Confucianism has been founded somewhere. Writing was discovered, next task alphabet.
Now, I guess either agriculture or fishing would be a wiser choice, the gamble is high here.

Met the second AI, Kublai Khan. Open borders with both the guys, Peter and Kublai, of course.
The interesting thing is that they didn't meet each other yet.

Here Kublai Khan little workboat coming from the eastern seas.

Stonehenge has been built somewhere. Kublai Khan workboat still scouting the area.

The Great Wall has been built somewhere. Kublai Khan workboat scouting went trough Aztecs capital.

Redistributed the espionage points all on Peter.

Moving that fortified scout on that hill was a good call!
Another workboat approaching from the east: This time is Sitting Bull.
The borders of the Russian city north-east from Aztec capital expanded.

The Great Lighthouse has been built somewhere. Sitting Bull workboat scouting went trough Aztecs capital too.

Darius I showed up, here the relations screen: all cautious, and open borders to everybody.
Surprisingly enough, since the Aztecs are the ones not scouting, they don't really know each other yet.
At least one between Darius I and Kublai Khan discovered writing already (since the open borders);
while both Sitting Bull and Peter likely didn't yet (since they don't have an open borders agreement).
Well, just some silly speculation on the second one, of course.
Ah... it could also be said, as a speculation, that Darius I should have discovered writing,
while Kublai Khan should not, since there is not an open borders agreement between Mongolia and Native Americans.

Here we are, turn 88, the Pyramids will be completed the next turn.
Yep, Pyramids completed in 650BC was a good call!

---


End session.


Save attached.
Autosave from 2400BC attached as well.


Please, anyone shadowing this game:
Don't post about your results, not even in spoilers, if including any detail I shouldn't know.
I'd like to discuss this game with other members of the forum, and I don't wish it to be ruined by spoilers.
With info from other games available, is hard for people to remember what I'm supposed to know, and what I'm not.
So, post a shadow before I finish my game, only if/when is not revealing anything I didn't already discover
(as for obsolete post in the previous chapter, for example).
Once I'm finished, anyways, it will be plenty of time to post and comment about other attempts on this same map.
Thanks for understanding this.


Comments?

 

[Grimith]

With those facts in mind, I would be surprised if you built the Pyramids before Turn 90 (625 BC) . . .

Here we are, turn 88, the Pyramids will be completed the next turn.
Yep, Pyramids completed in 650BC was a good call!

You may not have factored in the , but I didn't factor in you finding other forests on the island and chopping them for . Nicely played, and you did it with fewer worked tiles than you had planned.

I think teching Agriculture after Bronze Working instead of Animal Husbandry would have been more useful, as you could have farmed the grass corn you were working to feed another citizen, but you obviously didn't need it to finish the Mids.

Regarding the wonders that have gone thus far... wow, The Oracle (Turn 57) went before Stonehenge (Turn 67) and The Great Wall (Turn 70)? I'm not used to seeing those results unless the player beelines The Oracle. Since most of the AI you've met are reasonable suspects for building wonders, it looks as if I don't have enough experience on this map type to gauge wonder times properly.

Diplomatically, you could do worse than seeing the four AI you've met thus far in a game together. I just downloaded the save to have a looksie; Kublai Khan probably rolled a higher peaceweight than usual, but Sitting Bull and Peter are definitely following their natural base peaceweights by being each other's Worst Enemy. That could change with religion - you haven't met any of the religious founders yet, it seems - but targeting like that will hopefully keep you out of war trouble, especially since Peter is so close.

Have fun spinning the Mids into an advantage. You'll certainly need it after twiddling your thumbs in your capital for all of these turns - without Fishing, no less!

 

[Killroyan]

So what is the next plan:

Aplhabet -> trade for fishing/agri?
Great engineer -> Great Lighthouse or TGL?
Next city on the dye and using the lower corn?
Library next to run 2 GS and just go for acadamy or bulbing?

I have to say I was surprised to to see AH being researched by agri skipped. I love the fact that your games do not follow my normal ways of playing. It is enlightening. Thx.

 

[yatta77]

You may not have factored in the , but I didn't factor in you finding other forests on the island and chopping them for . Nicely played, and you did it with fewer worked tiles than you had planned. (...)

I'm not sure I got what you are trying to say...

It might be said π ~3
It might be said π ~3.14
It might be said π ~3.14#####

I predicted turn 80 or earlier.
You predicted turn 90 or later.
The result was: turn 89.

Ok, bad example, they are both uncorrect.
But, if you ask me, yours was the most correct one.

On diplomacy: Right!
I forgot to check the worst enemies!
Any other further comment (anyone) about it?

On tech path:
I was gambling on getting a resource on that plain or plain hill.
So since no copper, I betted on horse. Then writing for open borders.
And eventually I just beelined alphabet, since I was chopping.

I probably did something too arrogant, but I plan on getting what I (badly!) need from Alpha:
- Agriculture >> improve corn (also for heath), improve grasslands (mostly in next city)
- Fishing >> improve clams (also for heath), explore new city spots
- The wheel >> connecting resources, connecting cities
- Iron Working >> chop jungle, UU build, wish to see a resource on that plain and/or plain hill
- Archery >> for defense, don't wish a Shaka instant game over again (btw, UU resource-less )
- Meditation, Priesthood, Polytheism >> you know, better to get them, to trade them back
- Sailing >> settling, trade-connecting cities, lighthouses, defense from barbarians
- Pottery >> granaries are needed, mostly for health
- Mathematics >> aqueducts (for health) might be nice here(?)

I still have 18 turns to meet someone else...
(well, I mean, to hope someone else meets me! )

Have fun spinning the Mids into an advantage. You'll certainly need it after twiddling your thumbs in your capital for all of these turns - without Fishing, no less!

Definitely! Turn 90, 1 city, size 3!
I'm late! But was kind of planned.

Thanks!

---

So what is the next plan:

Aplhabet -> trade for fishing/agri?

And a bunch of other stuff I hope!

Great engineer -> Great Lighthouse or TGL?

Great Lighthouse is gone already. Great Library maybe. Oxford maybe.
Save one/two great engineer(s) for the UN build sounds terrible? (just asking)

Next city on the dye and using the lower corn?

I was thinking SE-SE-SE from capital, to get fresh water, dye, include all grassland tiles, get 2 mines.
_Maybe_ one northern city also, to grab that ivory somehow, the problem is low food....
Settle ON the ivory, work the mine to complete a lighthouse (while capital grows), how does sounds?
Well, we'll see I guess. It depends also on how many turns are needed for the capital (with 'mids) to include ivory in its cultural borders.

Library next to run 2 GS and just go for academy or bulbing?

Yep, 18 turns should be more than enough for a library. Then, after Alpha deals, it will definitely be time to grow.
After a while on just engineer and health cap reached, 2 scientist sound good (so about 50% GS/GE at the end).
If a great scientists will born, then yes, an academy in future Oxford city is preferable to me than bulb Philo (or anything else).

I have to say I was surprised to to see AH being researched by agri skipped. I love the fact that your games do not follow my normal ways of playing. It is enlightening. Thx.

Well thanks. Again, I really hoped in those horses... well, let's hope to get good deals from Alpha at least!

---

Next session as soon as I have some time.
Any other contribution is welcome, as always.
Thanks all so far!

 

[CreeDakota]

you sure love the pyramids! Have you targetted them in every Minimal game?

Your strategy is so counter the the mantra of FOOD FIRST that I have heard so often on these forums. I am curious if your Pyramids finish time could be matched by Teching Fishing and Agriculture earlier and then once BW comes in trying to maximize overflow whipping into the Mids. Can someone with some whipping micro skil please give that a shot for comparison? I suspect that the Mids may delay a bit but you would still get them yet have a couple of workboats or a settler ready for your trouble.

Looking Forward I would not settle on the Ivory. Your capital will likely get the ivory before your second settler is out anyway. Also you are going to want to max your hammers and population within your limited number of cities, Ivory will have no food or hills. All it will do is work coastal tiles for ever.

At this point sailing is really needed to find more land. Curious what trades will be revealed once alpha is in.

 

[yatta77]

you sure love the pyramids! Have you targetted them in every Minimal game?

In the chapter III I didn't. I got stone and industrious leader. Started them for gold failure and finished them before discovering iron working which was the beeline to attack cities.
But also yes, on immortal is unlikely for me to keep up in tech playing a fair peaceful game without the representation boost and with an AI having it instead. I wouldn't give up on them easily.

Your strategy is so counter the the mantra of FOOD FIRST that I have heard so often on these forums.

Wait! Also if I value hammers almost the same, generically speaking food goes first. Here the health cap was so low, and both agriculture and the wheel were missing to increase it. Well, fishing was another option.
If Montezuma started with agriculture and the wheel, I would research mining, but work the corn tiles first! I hope I'm able here to explain what I'm trying to say: the situation was so that I (thought I) had to chose to do so (at least up to bronze working, after that I just gambled on horses, and next now on alphabet).

I am curious if your Pyramids finish time could be matched by Teching Fishing and Agriculture earlier and then once BW comes in trying to maximize overflow whipping into the Mids.

I believe you might want to add also the wheel to the list, since with just clams you would have a health cap at 4. Sure you make more commerce... well, I don't know, I play by instinct a bit, so I thought the fastest way to mass media was the 'mids, the fastest way to the 'mids was this one.
I might likely be wrong, as I said many times, I don't mean to teach anything, just share my thoughts on the game if/when asked!

Looking Forward I would not settle on the Ivory. Your capital will likely get the ivory before your second settler is out anyway. Also you are going to want to max your hammers and population within your limited number of cities, Ivory will have no food or hills. All it will do is work coastal tiles for ever.

I believe you are correct, I'll just check the turns needed for the capital to gain another culture tile, but I guess this is the answer already.

At this point sailing is really needed to find more land. Curious what trades will be revealed once alpha is in.

Yeah! Same here!

Good Points! Thanks for the contribution!

---

I'll likely be able to play the next session later tonight.

 

[Zechnophobe]

I still think you are completely insane! Hah!

The Flourishing Aztec empire at a massive population of 3, working 2 improved tiles is ready to take on the world powered by the Pyramids .

Luckily you don't need population to be liked! I really want to crunch the numbers for this start and see if you could have done other unconditionally better things. I mean, with a build as simple as worker-warrior-pyramids, choosing slightly different tech paths could very quickly change things.

I'm curious why Animal Husbandry instead of Agriculture. It would seem that a horse tile would only be about the quality of any of your other tiles, so why focus on it? Getting that corn irrigated would have allowed for more hammers.

I think BW was the obvious choice, for chops, and the very good odds that the plains hill had copper on it (It was conspicuously barren, and may still yield iron).

I think GLH makes sense to skip. In a normal game it would be great, but you aren't rexing here. 6 Cities is all too easy to acquire.

 

[yatta77]

(...)

(Cut, since it is just above ).

Well... What can I say... nice analysis, you got everything correct.
(as many others, of course )

The animal husbandry >> writing >> alphabet bet wasn't worth it,
and the obviously safer and wiser choice after bronze working was agriculture >> fishing.
Which btw was also my original plan (see few posts above),
but sometimes while playing it is possible to end up screwing it aiming a bit too high...

Thanks for the feedback!

---

(smilies disabled for the 30 images limit).


Session 2, turn 106, 225BC
(first attempt, no cheats, no reloads)


Sitting Bull and Peter worst enemy of each other.

Pyramids completed, next a library in capital city.

Revolution to representation.

Darius proving the world is round.

40 Turns to the next culture expansion, a bit earlier with the library.

Yep! So late! Lost the alphabet race for so many turns!

A great prophet was born somewhere.

Another great prophet was born somewhere.

Temple of Solomon built somewhere.

A great scientist was born somewhere.
Wait! What is Peter doing!?

Aaaaargh... ivory gone!

Another great prophet was born somewhere.

Peter research is visible from now: mathematics in 3 turns.

Darius I discovered monarchy I guess...

Library finished up in the capital. Next a settler.

Tech screen: a beeline to aesthetics the next option?

Just one turn to alphabet, Peter is 10 away from construction.

Glance: all cautious for now.

Alphabet in, tech situation. And aesthetics already discovered. However, that's the next target.
Let's get iron working and fishing this turn, and sailing, agriculture and some other tech the next.
The two trade buddies must be Sitting Bull and Kublai Khan.
Too bad for Peter if the first is its worst enemy.

Here the deal with Kublai Khan: iron working and fishing for alphabet.

As planned, sailing the next from Sitting Bull...

Ah ah! Here is Aztecs iron! Nice!

Increased production in the capital.
And 21 turn left to the next cultural border level. Not that it matters so much now.

But... Sitting Bull doesn't trade sailing!

The wheel + agriculture + archery for the alphabet?
Sorry Sitting Bull, this isn't enough... the Aztecs need also sailing, maybe instead of archery.
However, farewell... for now, Aztecs will wait for sailing to be unblocked.

Another great scientist has been born.
And the Temple of Artemis has been built.
Time to move the worker? Start chopping that jungle instead of waiting to farm?

Workboats are badly needed too!
But let's finish up that settler first, before Peter colonizes also the south of the island.

Sitting Bull asking alphabet as a tribute... well, it's a diplomatic game, let's give up.

At least Sitting Bull is pleased towards the Aztecs now.

Tech screen: yep, the Aztecs are far behind at the moment.
However, a negative tech path choice won't mean the Aztecs will give up!
Time to rethink the tech path strategy.

---


End session.


Save attached.


Please, anyone shadowing this game:
Don't post about your results, not even in spoilers, if including any detail I shouldn't know.
I'd like to discuss this game with other members of the forum, and I don't wish it to be ruined by spoilers.
With info from other games available, is hard for people to remember what I'm supposed to know, and what I'm not.
So, post a shadow before I finish my game, only if/when is not revealing anything I didn't already discover
(as for obsolete post in the previous chapter, for example).
Once I'm finished, anyways, it will be plenty of time to post and comment about other attempts on this same map.
Thanks for understanding this.


Comments?