[BTS] Immortal Shadow Game With Mehmed: Ready to take it to the next level!

[CGQ]

Been gone for quite a while but I've been lurking through this forum and I'm ready to have another go round on Immortal. Been playing my own games over the weeks and usually I do really well in the BC's and then I get DOW'ed. One game I stole a worker from AI, they wouldn't declare peace no matter what (He wanted one of my cities) and then I got my butt kicked. I usually do HA rush if I have HA and some kind of tech advantage but I cannot start a proper rush before 800 BC.

Anyhow, I opened yet another immortal game with random leader and I'm already I'm stumped on turn 0. So stumped in fact that I decided to make this a shadow game out of it.

Settings:
Immortal
Continents
No Huts/Events
Normal Speed
Temperate Climate
Random leader
+1 Extra AI

Spoiler Turn 0 :

The start:

Moved warrior to hill:

My thought process:
Seems like a nice coastal start, except...no fishing. Worker first. Tech: Fishing? Mining? No hills to mine, only calendar resources on land.

Here's some ideas I have:

Settle 1W, build worker, tech fishing>Mining, farm both sugars while teching BW and building WB?:

I want to know how to approach starts like these. What's a good thought process? Lately I've been getting starts like these and I still get confused as to when it's okay to build WB's or when to build settlers/workers.

Usually I will only build one WB in capital for the best seafood (to get fish) then for the extra clams I have other cities build WB's for those while the capital builds settlers/workers.

 

[Nick723]

Welcome back!

This is an awkward start to take you up a difficulty level, but I’m sure the experts here will talk you through it.

I think you have the right idea, but that tech path should be mining -> bronze working -> fishing. By the time the sugars are farmed this should line up fairly well with BW being done and time to chop!

Fishing isn’t really needed earlier as you’re probably not going to build a work boat till after the first settler

 

[sampsa]

Yeh, weak start for this starting tech combo (plus no value from EXP). Can't share seafood, need to settle in the jungle to share farmed sugar. With this in mind, 2S makes some sense. I guess 1W (likely settling on horse/copper/iron) and mining-BW is the normal line though.

 

[Snowbird]

My general take on starts on this is... to reroll unless there is a very good reason to play them. Not the case where I could see such reason.

 

[Nick723]

Yeh, weak start for this starting tech combo (plus no value from EXP). Can't share seafood, need to settle in the jungle to share farmed sugar. With this in mind, 2S makes some sense. I guess 1W (likely settling on horse/copper/iron) and mining-BW is the normal line though.

Interested in this. I hadn’t considered that 1W might be a strategic resource. Would you still prefer moving 1W to SIP with that in mind, and why? Curious to understand.

 

[sampsa]

Interested in this. I hadn’t considered that 1W might be a strategic resource. Would you still prefer moving 1W to SIP with that in mind, and why? Curious to understand.

I think it's very likely to be one of the three. I would prefer 1W yes, 2 more forest, 3 more green tiles, less water. It's still +1 cc, even if working the tile would be preferable.

 

[Fippy]

2s for a qicker start (+5 with farmed sugar) while teching BW first.
It's like having dry corn + regular city tile.

Leaves room for a very nice seafood city 1w of clams.

 

[CGQ]

My general take on starts on this is... to reroll unless there is a very good reason to play them. Not the case where I could see such reason.

I've won a few Immortal games but only the ones with amazing starts and even those I struggle sometimes. I want to challenge myself

Spoiler Played to Turn 10 :

I settled 2S as suggested:

Settling on sugar gives you 12 turn worker just like settling on plains hill does...go figure! Plus there's a 3rd sugar 1S of the city so at least we'll have a bit more food!

Just found grass cows, good potential city here with bananas for later:

Turn 5 I meet Darius I:

I move my warrior west and find that Darius is pretty close by...

Next turn I meet Lincoln:

I get a bit closer and spot his worker farming corn. Lucky jerk had a decent start. Maybe I should do something about it hmm...
*hehehe

Hehehe

Turn 8 I snatch his worker!

Screw your immortal "advantages!"
Next turn (9) I get mining and go straight for BW:

Borders pop at capital. I escort my new worker to safety. Hopefully I can kill the scout to make peace with Darius.
Here's the land at Turn 10:

Jungled rice, bananas and another sugar. What do y'all think?

 

[Snowbird]

I want to challenge myself

So stumped in fact that I decided to make this a shadow game out of it.

There is probably some sort of logic in the "I want a challenge, but I need a forum help", but not the type I would ever care about.

Have fun by the way.

 

[Fippy]

You are right to play this map, why not..
jungle means less easy city spots, but enuf seafood around.
Cows + forests is good for any kind of rush too

If you can grab Darius Cap (which looks very nice) it could become your new central home.
When workers are out of work roads can be built..3 towards fish city (can then be settled in 1t), and prolly towards cows.
Warrior will be needed for guarding thou (panthers).

 

[sampsa]

I played the start before you posted your T10, and the position is pretty much identical. Despite the seeming ugliness of T0 position, it shouldn't be a too hard map (stolen worker, exceptionally nice neighbors).

 

[CGQ]

I played the start before you posted your T10, and the position is pretty much identical. Despite the seeming ugliness of T0 position, it shouldn't be a too hard map (stolen worker, exceptionally nice neighbors).

Spoiler Played to Turn 18 :

I escort my captured worker back to my capital:

The worker arrives in time for the capital's worker. They both farm the sugar quickly, then they'll mine the hill and farm the grassland next to the sugar, then build the road in anticipation for the next city:

My man Darius is pretty pissed...

Found some gems and rice SW of capital:

Workers will farm grassland, they finished mine:

Should I work the mine or work the these tiles, then work the mine?

Darius still won't make peace.

 

[CGQ]

Anyone?

 

[CGQ]

^ Always work the food first.
Here, you will need to work the mine for 2 turns to complete the warrior (which you prolly wanna do). 2 options :
- Working the mine doesn't delay the city's growth and you work it 2 turns at size 2 (unlikely).
- Working the mine does delay the city's growth, so you work it 1 turn at size 2 and 1 turn at size 3 (more likely).

Then you can start on your settler. Scout around the green cow to the NW, that's probably your next city spot. Nevermind that (edit), it's likely you need the seafood next because commerce and the cap can chop boats.

Spoiler Played to Turn 32 :

Turn 19 I set my two workers to farm the grassland for 3 food:

Turn 21 they finish and move on to roads. I work mine for one turn:

Turn 23 city grows to size 3. I work mine again to finish the warrior then switch to settler:

Workers are building road to future fish city:

BW arrives at turn 26, I tech for fishing next. Both workers will go down to chop settler:

Turn 27:

I discover marble and copper up north and meet the next AI:

I discover some more resources up north:

I chop the tree where my next city will be since sadly you don't get extra hammers from settling on forests so might as well take the 10 extra hammers...

Getting a bit worried about Sally. He still won't make peace. Usually when I steal workers AI makes peace after a few turns...

One worker moves to farm another grassland:

I kill Sally's scout with my warrior and he finally makes peace!

Next turn...Turn 32, I settle Edirne. Chops will go to first work boat:

What to do with other worker next? Mine those hills or chop a second workboat in Edirne?

 

[CGQ]

Spoiler Played to Turn 32 :

Turn 19 I set my two workers to farm the grassland for 3 food:

Turn 21 they finish and move on to roads. I work mine for one turn:

Turn 23 city grows to size 3. I work mine again to finish the warrior then switch to settler:

Workers are building road to future fish city:

BW arrives at turn 26, I tech for fishing next. Both workers will go down to chop settler:

Turn 27:

I discover marble and copper up north and meet the next AI:

I discover some more resources up north:

I chop the tree where my next city will be since sadly you don't get extra hammers from settling on forests so might as well take the 10 extra hammers...

Getting a bit worried about Sally. He still won't make peace. Usually when I steal workers AI makes peace after a few turns...

One worker moves to farm another grassland:

I kill Sally's scout with my warrior and he finally makes peace!

Next turn...Turn 32, I settle Edirne. Chops will go to first work boat:

What to do with other worker next? Mine those hills or chop a second workboat in Edirne?

Any input? I'm stuck here.

 

[Snowbird]

I think it would be useful if you post land overview instead of AI faces and formulating actual questions you are stuck with. Like worker plan depends on the plan at hand. And the plan depends on the land.

 

[Nick723]

Any input? I'm stuck here.

A few thoughts:
- turn 27 - I don’t think you need another farm. Would prefer worker to be chopping for workboat already
- now - chop then mine
- next city likely cows. As snowbird says hard to get a good sense of what’s where, so perhaps an overview screenshot would help with next city placement.

 

[Pangaea]

Why on earth are you calling Darius for "Sally"? That's rather confusing for people reading the updates.

It's a bit hard to make suggestions when we don't see more of an overview of the land. But it looks like growing the capital to 4 and 2-popping another settler is a sensible choice. Maybe settle it by the cow, if that is fitting. You're doing AH anyway. A workboat from city 2 would be nice as well, but it depends a little how you are doing with the warrior count. Don't want to be overrun when the barbs start invading. No need for another mine imo, you usually don't work those much early in the game anyhow, so chop into something useful instead.

Edit: Yeah, this looks like a fine spot. Eventually double food, and plenty of forests. Lincoln's borders are near to the south, so forget about going there (plus yucky jungle ofc). Expansion must go north here, probably along the coast. The FP area looks good, and I'm really intrigued to see if there is seafood near the copper directly north.

Spoiler :

Put EPs on somebody. Probably Willem. He's a good techer and trades easily.

Maybe you get horses somewhere. Will provide better security, and an option for killing some neighbours, for example with HAs.

 

[Renaaata]

Hello Everyone!
Long time lurker here. Haven't played civ for years, back then I was a confident Emperor player, even had some wins on Immortal (good leader/start/map), but it was years ago. So this map is pretty much a leap of faith for me, but I just feel like trying it. Probably will lose I hope you don't mind me trying and shadowing.
Obviously not a native english speaker, so apologies for language mistakes in advance.

Spoiler Turn 0-42 :

Turn 0 thought and settling:
For me it's an ugly start for sure, it would be a reroll normally, but lets try.
Plenty of food, should share it with other city.
No river, so no cottage land. Unusual situation for me, not a buro capital. If the game is still on I really should move palace.
This city will be an exellent spot for Nat. Epic, until that it will be good settler pump.

• 1 late happy resource(sugar) - I'm the leader of Ottomans so my special bulding the hamman will give me 2 happy face, but its also pretty late
• 1W from settler - maybe a strategic resource - altough I already have 4 resource so maybe not
• coastal start and probably a few more coastal cities - Great Lighthouse may be an option( I'm ORG, so lighthouses are cheaper)

Move warrior 1W, reveals nothing. To be able to share seafood(northern clam) I should move settler, game suggest 1S, but that's -2 forest
Do it anyway.
Moving settler 1S reveals one more sugar. Thinking of settling on coastal sugar, that would a 3 food city tile, but minus 1 clam and the fish.
Jungle to south.


Turn 1:
(just lost almost the whole comment, I was already typing turn 41, not too happy.....I hope I remember everything. I wrote way more than whats in my notes)

• Istambul founded on forest, yet one more sugar. Waaay too much food even with sharing 1 clam. Maybe later share sugar(s) also. With this many food whipping is always a good option, but I'm pretty bad at managing whip anger and I don't have early happy source.
• Hate to see jungle to the south, not a great place to settle early
• Istambul starts to build a worker
• research order will be mining - BW - fishing ; but waiting for turn 5

Turn 2:
Scouting warrior - Jumurdzsák found a cow. 2nd city spot founded for sure. It can grab one clam from Istambul and later, after a monument it will have its own food. Let's hope it will have some strategic resource also in its fat cross, because I'm pretty sure Istambul has none. (5 resource in original BFC)

Spoiler :

Turn 5:
Meet Darius, Jumurdzsák found his border just west from Istambul. His capital is awfully close. He has marble.
Starting research mining

Turn 8:
Meet Willem van Oranje by meeting his scout just near Darius's capital.
Buddhism founded
Darius has not just marble, but also ivory and a nice river start. Would be a really nice future capital for me. Too bad I'm pretty bad at waring, especially at early ones. Maybe that's the way to go. Let's hope I have bronze.

Turn 9:
mining done - starting BW
Jumurdzsák scouting out Darius's capital
Forget to set espesionage, now its set to Darius

Turn 16:
Worker is done in Istambul - starting on warrior
worker starts to farm sugar south of Istambul

Turn 17:
Hinduism founded

Turn 18:
Meet Lincoln - his scout pops up southwest from Istambul
WvO is the Hindu leader

Turn 19:
Darius's capital fully scouted. He has 2 nice city spots away from me. Probably he will not settle towards me.
6 floodplains, dry corn, marble, riverside plains ivory, 10 forests to chop. Just a bit nicer than my capital... I would really like to have it as my own capital

Spoiler :

Turn 21:
Farm is done on sugar, worker moves to green hill to mine it.

Turn 25:
Darius founded Pasargadae somewhere
BW in 1 turn - fingers crossed for bronze nearby
Maybe a mistake but Istambul starts to work green mine instead of unimproved sugar. It slows down growth, but gives faster production. I think I need more warriors before starting on settler in Istambul. For scouting info and because of the jungle south-southwest and for fog busting. I'm terrified from immortal barbs.

Spoiler :

Turn 26:
Research: BW done - starting fishing
I definietly need workboats to have at least some commerce. I'm thinking on building The Great Lighthouse again. My land is awfully commerce poor. I need to have that, otherwise my researh will be really bad.
No bronze nearby Here is the closest:

Spoiler :

Sadly no more seafood up there. Hopefully there is some food in the fog. It would be a nice 3rd city spot on the marble or 1S from wine.(forgot to mark them on map)
It would give me metal, one more later happy resource and finally a river for cottages. I feel pretty lost without my usual cottageland capital. And the marble would be nice too, although I feel like on immortal I will be really slow to build Oracle, with a 3rd city marble. So don't even thinking on getting CoD religion with it, but could be good for Great Library.....

Turn 27:
Istambul is done with 2nd warrior - Ahmed - starts one more warrior
Ahmed goes to west
worker starts to mine/chop green forested hill, so the chop will arrive after 3rd warrior
I realized I don't see bronze near Darius either, although his land is not fully scouted.

Turn 29:
Jumurdzsák survived an attack from a wolf on flat land. I need to scout out bronze area

Turn 30:
WvO founded Utrecht somewhere

Turn 31:
Lincoln founded New York somewhere
3rd warrior - Yusuf is done in Istambul - finally starting on settler
Yusuf heading south to scout the jungle a little bit
Ahmed is fogbusting 2nd city location

Turn 32:
Fishing done
I don't feel like gambling on horses for barb defence, I wiil need archery for sure.
So researhing hunting, it will make AH cheaper anyway.

Turn 33:
Yusuf founded Lincoln's border to the south of Istambul. Hopefully its New York. Wondering how bad his land could be if he settles a peak in the jungle towards me. Probably not war plans......although immortal difficulity

Spoiler :

Turn 38:
Settler is finally done in Istambul (with 2 chops). It heads to X.
Istambul starts to build workboat
Worker starts 3rd green mine
Hunting is done
Adopting slavery

Turn 39:
Jumurdzsák have to defend against a barb archer, I need him, hope he will survive!
Edine founded on X, starting workboat
0% research on archery

Turn 40:
Jumurdzsák survived. YAAAY!!! ---> Woody I.
Lincoln adopts slavery. (It's always a nice sentence....)

Turn 41:
Jumurdzsák found an island, 2 furs and 2 incenses way up north and also an island in the fog. I will need a scouting workboat for it. Makes TGLighthouse even more interesting.

Spoiler :

Finally starting to research archery. I'm really scared for barbs, even tho they are managable right now, but it can change any second.
Darius found Susa (3rd city) Probably its border is on pic. Sadly that claims the only food in marble area, although can't use it for bronze city anyway.
??? marks the spot for bronze city, but I feel its waaay too far for my 3rd city. Maintance would kill me, and I'm not sure I can defend it

3rd city spot:
lot closer, can have cow and marble and finally a river for cottages, and to be honest: where else?!

Spoiler :

Turn 42:
Found a Darius city's border, probably Pasargarade.

Spoiler :

I realized I will have too many screen shots for one, even had to delete a few. I definietly play further(, I did, but I made notes.

I don't think this map/ start / difficulity is suitable for me, but I battle 'til I can.
Archery is in 5 turns - hope it will be enough to be safe. Without nearby bronze I don't know how to attack Darius. Obviosly axerush is out of picture for now. Maybe horses or iron?! Feels late.
I'm bad at waring anyway and this map is not making it easy for me.
I'm not to happy with my land, not my usual start for sure, I don't like my city spots.
I already feel I will be boxed in soon.
I need commerce somehow: - workboats will help for sure
- rivercity will help too, but need pottery for it
- TGLigthhouse is also an option, but need masonry and sailing for it, but only 1 more forest to chop
And don't forget I need mysticism and AH ---> way too many techs to grab with my poor research
Current army: 3 warriors out in the wild
Worker was pretty much on chopping-mining spree
Need at least 2 workboats,3 is better, and one also have to explore the island
Foreign Advisor - Glance reveals that Lincoln is WvO's worst enemy, Lincoln and Darius are pleased towards each other

Demos:

Spoiler :

Known world:

Spoiler :

Ah well, let's play further.