Immortal Shadow Game

[Araius]

I've been a long time lurker on this forum and I'm looking to up my game
Been doing well on Emperor so I'd like to see what terrible thought processes I have on Immortal since I know you guys love commenting on games
Settings are:

Spoiler :

Random leader
Fractal
Standard world size
Medium sea level
Temperate climate
Normal speed
No events
No huts

And... this is the start

Spoiler :

And... I've attached the save (I hope)
I'm thinking of moving the scout 1E as there's a hill and there appears to be more rivers in that direction
No idea where the food will be so already thinking about settling in place

 

[lymond]

Hmm...lotsa forests here indeed. Scout 1E looks okay, but NE may be better since it will reveal "new" stuff since we can guess what is E. Doubt there is any reason to move settler based on what I see. Food possibly 2E, 2S1E and 1S2W of settler. Unfortunately all on plains tiles and apparently all dry. Game calculates those spices as food I believe, so you likely have dry wheat, sheep or plains cows at most. Poor food start but the forest chops will help a lot early to get a good start in lieu of much whipping this undoubtedly food poor city.

 

[Araius]

Thanks for the response
Honestly had no idea spices counted as food in determining the starting resources... well that seems pretty bad
Moved the scout 1 NE and found lots of plains, another desert tile... and one flat grassland tile

Spoiler :

Looks like SIP for sure to me

 

[sampsa]

Pretty sure game doesn't count spices as a food-resource, otherwise "getting spiced" would be a thing. Guess you need to SIP and find out if it is a thing.

 

[Araius]

It seems pretty spicy to me

Spoiler :

Research is kept for the first four turns if you don't research anything, right?
I take it finding an AI in the next few turns is a priority since they all have agriculture
I also take it that building a worker and getting agriculture first is a no-brainer

 

[Fippy]

Was thinking about BW first, but i guess we want at least Agri to grow while no chops arrive?

 

[Araius]

Went BW as I felt getting a settler ASAP was probably a priority
Played up to turn 15 when I produced a worker a turn before BW was discovered
On turn 5 met Mehmed

Spoiler :

On turn 11 met Boudica

Spoiler :

Currently turn 15

Spoiler :

The land around me seems like hot garbage
Thinking of settling 1 SW of the northern cow, still need to scout the nearby coast. Hope it's like 5 fish
Not sure if to build warrior or settler first, though I'm guessing a warrior first is better as scouts are pretty terrible at defending anything

 

[Lone Wolf]

That's quite a desert to the east.

 

[Harv]

That's quite a desert to the east.

Are we going to call it the Klingon Warbird Desert?

 

[Jarno]

Surya is creative/expansive right? That would've meant the borders expanded at t3 and a forested plains hill was available to work. Working this tile would have got you the worker a few turns earlier. Did you check this? And whether this would have delayed BW? I'd have gone agriculture first, to improve your only power tile.
For you there is only the cliffhanger now... Is there copper available?

Oh and please turn on resource bubbles

 

[Gumbolt]

So 40 H from chops 8 turns. 60-7=53 53/4=14
So 14 turns for a settler. Albeit with a third chop that would be 12 turns.

Having to use 3 chops this early to complete a settler seems a big investment.

If you find copper then you would likely work that first. Problem is at end of this your growing on a 2f1h resource.

Whatever city you settle will likely need AH to be useful. Long term double gems/cows/wheat looks great! I certainly think you want your corn improved sooner than later. If you got agriculture would you then delay a settler chop? If you found copper same is true. In the mean time your building a settler that takes 25 turns.

Of course with agriculture your worker is waiting for things to do. Same for 3h tile. Even if you got the worker early it would of been sat doing nothing so maybe 2f1h1c was better.

Maybe double chop and agriculture next works. If you find copper improve that first. That plains tile could be a resource.

You could chop a second worker now. Would that be better? You are expansive so chops would be worth 25 hammer. 3h tile with base hammer give 5h a turn.

Then you have options to speed up next 2 settler.

 

[Gumbolt]

Edited last pop quite a bit. Complicated start.

 

[Gumbolt]

Of course if you built worker 3T sooner you could of been building a settler or worker in those 3 turns. 15H towards a second worker. 12H to settler. Of course you lose 1 turn on BW. Worker could still move onto forest next to wheat.
So BW 1 turn sooner or 12-15 hammers in another build?

Edit - In this instance I would value worker/settler hammers with only 2f growth.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Surya is creative/expansive right? That would've meant the borders expanded at t3 and a forested plains hill was available to work. Working this tile would have got you the worker a few turns earlier.

Agree, with EXP leaders always try to put 4H into your first worker, because then it converts to 5H. So checking the city again after the first border pop is an excellent idea.
I would almost always aim at finishing the 1. worker asap, even if he will be idle later: it's not only about having your worker but also about starting to grow earlier (let it be only for a spice tile with 1C).

 

[Araius]

Right, yeah. I'll make sure resource bubbles are on
Delaying the tech choice until turn 4 was probably wise. I went BW from the advice I was giving here, kinda just to see how it would turn out
I'm aware expansive gives an extra hammer if you work a 3H tile. It's just that the choice to go BW makes it so commerce is kinda needed. So I spent most turns working forest spice and some turns working 3H tile so that the worker comes out at the time BW is useful
Two workers first seems like a novel idea, though I guess this is also a novel start so I guess I could try that. Could work farms/pastures a lot faster that way too
I'm not sure what Boudica is doing here with her spy points:

Spoiler :

She hasn't met Mehmed yet and yet is spending all her EPs on people other than me
Here's T15 again with resource bubbles enabled

Spoiler :

 

[Tobiyogi]

2 workers can work for Sury in general but here I don't see any clear improvements they would achieve. Not knowing if there is copper, only judging from your screenshot from T15, i see a good 2nd city spot on the PH SE to the wheat. If you settle there you can easily work the mine and produce a 2nd worker while reaseaching AH and waiting for borders to pop + leaving the wheat to the capitol. I would not train 2 workers straight away from the capitol, not in this case.

 

[Tobiyogi]

The map is not too bad, imo, the only real issue is how to make the capitol grow fast enough to get the first settler out. It's tough to decide between Agri and BW first, I agree with Gumbolt that chopping 3x into your first settler is not ideal. Maybe trying to get 1 riverside-mine online, then the wheat, then another mine and building your settler at size 3?
The other issue is that i don't see raw material for Balistas, what a shame

 

[Araius]

Thinking back on working the forest PH for 4 turns as opposed to the full 15. It is an immediate loss of 11 hammers for 11 beakers, but if we assume chopping gives 5H a turn then getting BW one turn earlier makes it a 6 hammers for 11 beakers exchange maybe as well as getting AGI one turn earlier. Honestly I don't have the judgement to know the value of commerce compared to hammers in this stage of the game
Warriors into a settler seems fine if chop and then build the mine. I would have three warriors at size 2. Maybe better to build the settler then? Idk
Two workers still seems appealing to me since I could maybe build spice farms fairly quick and then would be a fair amount of commerce while working 3F tiles plus expansive is most efficient when you have a multple of 4 hammers when building the worker
Honestly my thoughts are a bit muddled at the moment. Expecting someone to come along and say 'Actually building a settler right now is the best play'

 

[Tobiyogi]

Long term plan could be to settle the stone in the north and build the HG in the capitol. The won't be much needed but the Khmer UB has some value anyway, especially on a food-poor map and with so much forest, HG can be easily chopped. Also going for Math is good with all those forests and it is a pre-req for Calendar. Pyramids otoh, they go earlier (stone city will be the 4th city probably), they are more expensive, and they work better with high food.

I have an intuitive aversion to farm the spices, lots of worker turns, and it looks like a map where calendar should come rather soon, also getting to size 3 should be doable w/o those poor 3F1C tiles. Whipping won't really work anyway, which makes Maths even more important.

But I would have to play the map for deeper insights, it's hard to tell what exact steps to take. Will join in later.

 

[Gumbolt]

11 beakers vs 11 hammers. If this means a settler 2-3 turns soon this would have a snowball effect later in the game. I still think double chopping worker could be good here. Especially if you find copper as the workers will have plenty to do. New city will have cows to produce. You can get the wheat improved and chop a settler quickly.