Immortal University 59 - Mehmed II

[TheMeInTeam]

Org is the most overrated trait imo, we all usually play with trading on and there are so many other ways to make some money.
If i compare it to let's say PHI, a single great merchant prolly makes up for all the money that ORG saves lol ~~

PHI usually doesn't net many more total GP, it nets them faster. Are you going to run a merchant in the first 100 to 115 turns? One of the nice things about ORG is it is always in effect no matter what you do from turn 0 on. Similar to FIN, this early advantage can snowball...but ORG doesn't have the tile improvement restriction.

Yes, you can abuse tech trades (which overpower all mechanics and traits, mind you) to come up with cash instead, or use a merchant. However, that merchant has an opportunity cost. Are you going to burn it instead of a bulb? Also there's no way an early GM can compete with the civic AND hammer savings from org. That assertion is ridiculous. If you have a 9 cities and build courthouses in them you're already talking about a 540 saving, and potentially pretty early on for the majority of it. Lighthouses too. Save an average of 5 gold per turn on civic maintenance (though that's probably very lowballing it) and you're still talking 1000 gold...you won't get that from a GM until around the renaissance. For PHI to compete it NEEDS the cheaper unis, which it does get. However, PHI trades away some flexibility for its power...

ORG doesn't. Prat rushing? It helps. Running bur? Helps. War civics? Helps. Large pop? Helps. Cottages? Useful. Specs? Hammers? Chain whipping? Always useful, instantly and forever. I bet if you painstakingly quantified its returns and the time it returns them you'd find it to be a very balanced, if brainless, trait. Pairing it with a strong expansion trait pushes a leader to instant above-average territory, excepting some strange settings.

Personally, I'm starting to tire of tech trades anyway. They're broken, just like they always have been and just like RA are in civ V. Look at the returns!

Library in 9 cities: 25% in all cities.
University in 9 cities: 25% in all cities.
Oxford in capitol: 100% in one city.

Trading a monopoly tech for equal beaker value: 100% in all cities.
Doing that 3x with cookie cutter techs the AI doesn't usually touch: 300% in all cities.

What's wrong with this picture? The cost vs returns part, that's what. This is bad all over the place too! In MP, it leads to "guys who manage to whore tech trade alliances win" rather than any empire management skill, which gets completely overwhelmed. In SP, it leads to games that are super easy or hard based on total chance of whether trades are readily available for the human and whether the AI executes them with any frequency...and once you memorize the patterns the strategy application, while there, isn't exactly deep. Broker techs to attain the equivalent of 1000's of , bend war declarations to your will, etc etc...all because you quickly researched things the AI doesn't have...

 

[Mylene]

PHI usually doesn't net many more total GP, it nets them faster.

I get more with PHI, ORG on the other hand doesn't have the same snowball effect why i consider it a lot weaker.

 

[shyuhe]

@TMIT - if you capture an AI's capital, you'll prevent him from attempting a culture win. Or did you pick up voluntary vassals?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@TMIT - if you capture an AI's capital, you'll prevent him from attempting a culture win. Or did you pick up voluntary vassals?

Was avoiding "capitulate to other guy" syndrome, and I DID snipe a culture city off of each. Very fluky.

 

[michmbk]

I love ORG - one of the beautiful things is after an early rush or rex, you limp to COL, and BAM - 2 pop whip courthouses. Beautiful sight - almost instant recovery. Not to mention the benefit of running all the high cost civics cheap. Yeah, PHI is maybe a bit better, but ORG to me is a great trait overall.

Mehmed is just outside of my top tier leaders to play with, because I am such a fan of ORG. Yeah, I'd probably pick Huayna, Liz, Darius, Mansa & the Indians over him, but that's about it - he's just outside my top leaders along with a few others. Mehmed's UB makes his traits even better - he can handle lots of cities thanks to ORG, and bigger, better developed (and faster growing) cities thanks to EXP and hammams. He's a very powerful leader.

 

[Mylene]

Mind tricks
120h or 60h Courthouse...usually there are either some forests left, or you capture cities with granaries that have no problem whipping it for the full price, or you wait a bit longer and pay how much more per round..as much as selling a ressource to an AI gives?
Not to mention that with ORG you don't need them urgently.
The whole trick behind this is that it makes you feel at ease, for me it's an illusion compared to the much better benefits that other traits can give.

 

[michmbk]

Mind tricks
120h or 60h Courthouse...usually there are either some forests left, or you capture cities with granaries that have no problem whipping it for the full price, or you wait a bit longer and pay how much more per round..as much as selling a ressource to an AI gives?
Not to mention that with ORG you don't need them urgently.
The whole trick behind this is that it makes you feel at ease, for me it's an illusion compared to the much better benefits that other traits can give.

Then I use those forests or the extra pop for things like monasteries, temples to increase happiness, or wonders up the aesthetics line...or better yet, more settlers since my economy can handle it by using those extra resources for more gold per turn... ORG allows you to support more cities in the medieval era, and then when you want to run the nice civics like bureau & org religion, it's cheap to do so.

Faster courthouses and lighthouses are not an insignificant benefit, neither is the cheaper price of civics - you may not see the active benefit as much as you do when you get an earlier GP to bulb philosophy, but the benefit becomes apparent when you're in an advantageous position and you don't even know it.

I don't think anyone is going to argue with you if you say PHI is better, but outside of that, ORG is right up there with FIN and SPI as top civics. Especially if you tend to play a lot of wargames, which I do. Seven of my top ten scores come from games with an ORG leader, so it doesn't feel like much of an illusion to me.

 

[obsolete]

Something wrong with the vassal mechanics. Izzy would not vassal until she was down to the last city, even though she was at the bottom of the power list. And I had numerous vassals already.

What he hell could have happened to make any sense there?

Spoiler :

 

[Nydaeli]

Spoiler :

Well, I got wrecked. I built the Oracle (for Monarchy), expanded to six cities, then waited around until Monty showed up with a big stack and overran me around 400 AD.

Mistakes I made:
- Building too much infrastructure (e.g. Markets and Hammams) when I should've been building units.
- Oracling Monarchy.
- Ignoring Montezuma until he was ready to crush me. My diplomacy is really bad in general.

 

[GenerallyGreat]

It's a very different experience being able to expand into so much top shelf land, it's so different to scrambling for whatever 6 spots you can find on a pangea. I should've had a bit of a practice game on this script. 1808AD Domination.

Spoiler :

This game took a while so I don't remember it all but anyway. I scouted West first enough to see that Monty wasn't close, Jao however (who is in every game I play lately!) found me on turn 4 so I was keen to check out his land get settlers ready. I was panicking a bit about the lack of copper around but I did find some horses in a good blocking spot. I got the horse hooked up before I needed my first archer but it was close. The barb in the picture was a bit of worry but I'm pretty sure they don't enter borders that early?

The second block went in to seal off the coast and grab the stone. It left a single tile corridor but I didn't think Jao would try to sneak through it. City 4 was built next to the capital to work the cows floodplains to grow settlers/workers and to grow some cottages for the capital. ( the only cottages I had) I settled a 5th city on a hill to get corn/horse and block Monty. The second Monty blocker would be the barb city SW of it settled on the gold if I every got some military. The capital chopped out the Mids during this time and the Jao blockers built archers and a walls! as he was in war mode and wasn't likely to be after Izzy given they shared her religion that hadn't spread to me. I limped to aesthetics while Jao threw pre-catapult rubbish at my fortified city. Still he wouldn't take peace until I gave him aesthetics. I thought Poly would get it done.

400AD 9 cities with plans for 12-14. So much land! I under-built workers in this game and didn't expand as quick as I should've. I was a bit spooked by the tech rate until everyone started hating each other.

This is meant to be the Lib shot but it seems it's the pick your next tech shot, oh well I took MT as I figured cannons and Jans would take to long in travel time going around the doughnut. I had to self tech Music as WVO had won it and wasn't sharing. I also went Nat before Ed so I could build Uni's and Oxford quickly but it turns out they were done just as the GA started.

I was forced by Izzy and her AP into war with Monty at 1150 AD and he moved 49 units into my land. Luckily he only had 3 catapults and furiously bombarded me while I whipped in defenders. I picked off a few wondering units and gave him Aesthetics for peace while prepared my Cav army. I was ready earlier than 1390 but he was in war mode so I waited for him to send his stacks against Hannibal.

While Monty was getting slaughtered this surprised me:

The rest was just a matter of moving units around the world. Biology makes whipping amazing with 20+ cites and ton of farms. I teched up to tanks and Bombers but it was pretty much just Cavs, Cannons/Arty and few Airships in the end. I killed my opponents rather than vassaling so I wouldn't have to deal with Izzy and her boy Ragnar to make the 64% but that was probably a mistake as I probably could've taken her out for a quicker win. I declared war as I waited for borders to pop so I could use my shiny new toys and took 3 of Ragnar's cities.

 

[mtr12]

I love ORG - one of the beautiful things is after an early rush or rex, you limp to COL, and BAM - 2 pop whip courthouses. Beautiful sight - almost instant recovery. Not to mention the benefit of running all the high cost civics cheap. Yeah, PHI is maybe a bit better, but ORG to me is a great trait overall.

Mehmed is just outside of my top tier leaders to play with, because I am such a fan of ORG. Yeah, I'd probably pick Huayna, Liz, Darius, Mansa & the Indians over him, but that's about it - he's just outside my top leaders along with a few others. Mehmed's UB makes his traits even better - he can handle lots of cities thanks to ORG, and bigger, better developed (and faster growing) cities thanks to EXP and hammams. He's a very powerful leader.

"The Indians"?

I know that Gandhi has possibly the strongest trait synergy in the game, along with a powerful UU and good versatility. But compared to that, Asoka just seems meh. I realize that Spiritual and Organized have decent synergy together, but Gandhi has PHI...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Mind tricks
120h or 60h Courthouse...usually there are either some forests left, or you capture cities with granaries that have no problem whipping it for the full price, or you wait a bit longer and pay how much more per round..as much as selling a ressource to an AI gives?
Not to mention that with ORG you don't need them urgently.
The whole trick behind this is that it makes you feel at ease, for me it's an illusion compared to the much better benefits that other traits can give.

Mind tricks you say? Forests don't take away bonuses or disappear between comparisons. If the forest doesn't show up because you avoided picking ORG, it is there in both cases. When comparing 2 alternatives, considering factors that are identical in each is not relevant! It isn't just the extra gold per round, but also the alternative uses of hammers and the alternative uses of the earliest gold in the game + snowball effect.

There is no "illusion". You're comparing early savings of one kind with later settings and a different benefit. The only "illusion" here is that you're trying to confound things with chops and whips, which you can ALWAYS DO. If you meant that you're performing mind tricks in your argument, that makes more sense but does less well at building a case .

Considering this game often rewards lesser benefits earlier, you'd be hard pressed to convincingly say ORG is an inferior trait without a thorough (and nigh-impractical) numerical analysis.

 

[Ecori]

ORG is my favorite trait. Any leader with any combination of ORG/XXX is above average imo.

As to Phil I don't even consider it top tier (ORG, FIN and CRE), but roughly on par with SPI and EXP. It is nice for getting the first GS earlier but that (and cheap Unis) is pretty much it. If you were CRE you would still get an early GS due to the faster Library. If you are running a SE with lots of specialists then yes Phil is strong. But on food poor maps where you might only be running 2 Scientists in your Capital then it is really meh.

ORG simply doesn't have these restraints. It is ALWAYS useful and it keeps getting stronger when moving up difficulties.

As to the game:

Spoiler :

PLayed it last night. Teched to Cui and Vassaled Monty, Hanni, Willem and Ragnar. Jao vassaled to Izzy who got rifles. At that time it was 2 in the morning so I'll finish it up tonight.

 

[obsolete]

Mind tricks you say?

As has been proven way back since Acidtyre's time, all chieftan players seem to prove that Fin > Org. But the funny thing is the deity players like to prove Org > Fin.

Technically there could be truth to both, the returns on Org are minimalized on lower games, while Fin never increases a damn worth on the higher levels.

 

[Mylene]

Obsolete doesn't like cottages
So he doesn't rate FIN high, that's ok i don't like them much either.

The other traits do have early benefits as well.
I'd take an earlier settled GS + academy with Phi over some gold per turn any day.
And i'd also take a Fin powered super commerce city.
And better wonder dates with Ind. And...

Don't need a numeric analysis for this, boring and it doesn't make up for the experiences you make on your own. The beakers i can make when the slider is at 100% are worth more for me than some gold that can be "created" in other ways.
And hey it is just my opinion, if everyone would agree that would also be boring ~~

 

[GenerallyGreat]

Spoiler :

Well, I got wrecked. I built the Oracle (for Monarchy), expanded to six cities, then waited around until Monty showed up with a big stack and overran me around 400 AD.

Mistakes I made:
- Building too much infrastructure (e.g. Markets and Hammams) when I should've been building units.
- Oracling Monarchy.
- Ignoring Montezuma until he was ready to crush me. My diplomacy is really bad in general.

Spoiler :

Yeah 6 cities on this map isn't cutting it. Monty probably had 15 expanding into your land. Did you try and get him to war someone else or get someone to declare on him?

 

[vranasm]

Obsolete doesn't like cottages
So he doesn't rate FIN high, that's ok i don't like them much either.

The other traits do have early benefits as well.
I'd take an earlier settled GS + academy with Phi over some gold per turn any day.
And i'd also take a Fin powered super commerce city.
And better wonder dates with Ind. And...

Don't need a numeric analysis for this, boring and it doesn't make up for the experiences you make on your own. The beakers i can make when the slider is at 100% are worth more for me than some gold that can be "created" in other ways.
And hey it is just my opinion, if everyone would agree that would also be boring ~~

and once you decide to play specific leader it's irrelevant anyway... you already made the decision and have to play the cards you chose.

for example if you play fin leader it's good to spam cottages.
if you play org it's good to Oracle CoL etc

 

[michmbk]

"The Indians"?

I know that Gandhi has possibly the strongest trait synergy in the game, along with a powerful UU and good versatility. But compared to that, Asoka just seems meh. I realize that Spiritual and Organized have decent synergy together, but Gandhi has PHI...

Asoka is perhaps my favorite warmonger - switch into war traits while building units, and switch into builder/economy traits while doing infrastructure. 2 pop whip courthouses in conquered cities, and the ability to handle high cost civics while expanding during war.

Add to all of that a fantastic UU, which can allow for some of the earliest rushes and never obsoletes, and he's a great leader. I think his traits have excellent synergy for wargames.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

As has been proven way back since Acidtyre's time, all chieftan players seem to prove that Fin > Org. But the funny thing is the deity players like to prove Org > Fin.

Technically there could be truth to both, the returns on Org are minimalized on lower games, while Fin never increases a damn worth on the higher levels.

FIN is reasonable at top levels IMO. Better than ORG, PHI, or even EXP/war traits (when needed) though? Probably not. It's a bit tricky to use it though because going cottage crazy usually isn't good play while you generally don't see much non-coast benefit if you don't. It's definitely stronger for those settler spree games where you don't pay maintenance and can easily afford 20 BC cities and get them all going on cottages instantly...and when you don't pay maintenance of course the ORG bonus doesn't seem very relevant .

PHI loses luster as you drop difficulties too by the way. You get your great person, cue strong short-term benefit, academy, or settled rep spec...and then by turn 80 you're already tech leader and will be forever. Not so great in that case.

Used to think PRO sucked but reading through some AW games changes my opinion. Walking around with 250+ xp units is fun times.

 

[kossin]

The beakers i can make when the slider is at 100% are worth more for me than some gold that can be "created" in other ways.

Exactly. ORG lets you keep the slider at 100% longer and more easily
But it's true that you don't see a big difference in the early phase of the game, it comes after you hit several cities and more costly civics. Seeing as pretty much everyone agrees the early phase is the most important, you can see that all ORG really does in that phase is give you 30H per LH.

If you're realllllly strapped for cash in that phase and that ORG comes and saves you 5gpt, of course you're gonna be glad to have the trait - but usually that situation was avoidable.