Importance of white representation in fiction

[Gorbles]

Because of the paragraph just above the one you quote.

I still don't understand.

The Middle-Earth being analogous to Europe at some point in its history has very little relevance to the diversity of the cast (if any).

The only reason I can think of (and I'm open to other suggestions) is someone mandating that the Fellowship (or any other important cast members) must absolutely match the racial makeup of Europe by percentage - which also seems pretty flawed. Europe still had enough racial diversity at any point in its history for a group as small as the cast of main characters in the Lord of the Rings to be whatever minority the showrunner or filmmaker wants.

I'm not saying that's your suggestion at all - that's just all that's springing to mind.

 

[aelf]

Removing Tom Bombadil also affected the worldbuilding. I guess that matters to him too? Maybe Peter Jackson's film is anathema too.

 

[Akka]

I still don't understand.

The Middle-Earth being analogous to Europe at some point in its history has very little relevance to the diversity of the cast (if any).

I don't really get how you can say that the appearance of the people from Middle-Earth is irrelevant to how Middle-Earth was being imagined. Especially when its people are described in the books, their difference with other people being specifically mentioned, and the desire of the author to have (western) Middle-Earth being reminiscent of a specific culture and mythical period being explicitely stated.

 

[Senethro]

The performance is not the fiction.

The performance is most definitely of our world.

 

[Gorbles]

I don't really get how you can say that the appearance of the people from Middle-Earth is irrelevant to how Middle-Earth was being imagined. Especially when its people are described in the books, their difference with other people being specifically mentioned, and the desire of the author to have (western) Middle-Earth being reminiscent of a specific culture and mythical period being explicitely stated.

I'm asking what bearing it has. What it affects, like you said it would. I've tried to give examples and how I think they wouldn't actually change much at all (in my opinion).

I obviously don't understand what you're getting at, so any further explanation of why something like a diverse bunch of hobbits is going to change the fundamentals of the setting is necessary.

I want to understand the claim better, because as-is I don't understand it. That's all. I appreciate you may consider it obvious, but I really don't.

 

[Joij21]

So you're saying this because you don't believe manly means having to be stoic is an outdated notion?

It's not outdated because I see a lot of young men adopting that sort of attitude from pickup artists/dating gurus over YouTube. The MGTOW community also seems very fond of stoicism as well, and there's quite a few younger men in that group.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Most of the great stories we are heir to come from specific cultures whether they are Asian, European, Indian or something else. Many of those stories are tied to times a places where a particular culture and point of view are dominant even if the story is fanciful and wholly unreal. Access to foreign stories is more common now than 100 years ago. When the stories are good, people want to feel that they can participate in them. How do black or Asian people participate in LOTR or Hamlet? How do white folk feel a part of the Samurai world? How would gay men or lesbian women feel any affinity for the world of Lonesome Dove? To be a part of such stories whoever they are needs to have a place in those worlds. Bridgerton anyone? So the old stories get rewritten with all of the new segments of people we recognize now in mind. And yes those alterations can change the stories and make them different. Perhaps better; perhaps worse. I never got into "Little Women" or "Nancy Drew" as a kid. I wonder why?

When we were more culturally isolated and in the west, the white men (and sometimes women) were the learned audience for books. Spanish, versus German, versus French versus English was perhaps important too. But we have moved past that now. It is time for Chinese girls to want to be Arwen Evenstar.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I suspect the same general cause and effect applies here. People are satisfied when characters fit with how they have previously imagined them, but feel anger and disappointment when their expectations are made to fail.

Thinking about it... this statement also seems like a pretty good explanation/rationalization for subconscious racism... ie feeling that X people are supposed to fit someone's preconceptions and/or how they previously imagined them to be, and discomfort/shock/anger/disappointment/rejection results when their expectations are not met. I'll have to think about it some more, but that was one of my initial reactions to the concept.

I am not a gatekeeper, but my position on this is.. it depends?

I tend to agree that it depends and has to go on a case by case basis, including, what the specific artist's point is in creating the depiction. For just one example, sometimes subversion of expectations is the point. I'll add, that contrary to some of the suggestions in the article @Yeekim linked, many people enjoy subversion of expectation (which is, arguably just another way of saying "being surprised") in a wide variety of contexts... roller coasters, movies, Xmas presents, etc.

please don't cast a non-East/central Asian for that role, it would distract from the story. No Tom Cruise

But See, The Last Samurai. I just have to chuckle at this...Of course I get all the surrounding context, which is part of what we are discussing, but I just thought the comment was funny... because it reminded me of a bit by Paul Mooney where he bemoans the fact that The Mexican stars Brad Pitt, and The Last Samurai stars Tom Cruise and suggests that he will make a film called "The Last N**** on Earth, starring... Tom Hanks" (NSFW)

Neo from the Matrix could in theory have been black

As I understand it. The role of Neo was originally written for Will Smith, but he thought the script/concept was too silly and turned the role down... to do Wild Wild West instead

 

[Birdjaguar]

MIGTOW community

???
???

 

[Joij21]

???
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Er, I meant MGTOW.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I meant MGTOW.

????

 

[Joij21]

????

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way

 

[Farm Boy]

The whole movie theater burst into laughter during a preview for The Last Samurai. It was so ridiculous.

However, despite the movie's flaws, it seems to treat the white savior complex with exactly the respect it deserves. It's a good flick worth a watch.

 

[Akka]

I'm asking what bearing it has.What it affects, like you said it would. I've tried to give examples and how I think they wouldn't actually change much at all (in my opinion).

I'm stumped at how I can make it any clearer.
The settings in which the events take place is supposed to give a vibe of (mythical) northern Europe. You are telling me that you don't see how throwing in people whose appearance give vibes of completely different places has no bearing on the feeling of the settings ?
That's exactly like telling me "I don't see the problem with putting people in Nikes and blue jeans has any bearing on the settings being medieval". It doesn't fit the setting, and it gives it a different atmosphere.

Also, again, Tolkien explicitely described how the people looked and their appearance was related to from where they came. It's downright contradicting the source material here.

 

[Senethro]

I'm stumped at how I can make it any clearer.
The settings in which the events take place is supposed to give a vibe of (mythical) northern Europe. You are telling me that you don't see how throwing in people whose appearance give vibes of completely different places has no bearing on the feeling of the settings ?
That's exactly like telling me "I don't see the problem with putting people in Nikes and blue jeans has any bearing on the settings being medieval". It doesn't fit the setting, and it gives it a different atmosphere.

Also, again, Tolkien explicitely described how the people looked and their appearance was related to from where they came. It's downright contradicting the source material here.

You could try saying why you think this is valuable, instead of just bluntly repeating that it is valuable.

 

[Birdjaguar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Going_Their_Own_Way

The wounds and rifts caused by the splintering of social identities and the internet's ability to feed those identities will take a while to heal. Good luck.

 

[lymond]

Interestingly, I came upon this quote from Book 3 of WoT last night as I was reading:

Men and women of every nation thronged the streets. They were dark of skin, and pale, and everything in between.......

It's Egwene's pov as she enters Tar Valon.

 

[warpus]

But See, The Last Samurai.

That Samurai was supposed to have been a French or British dude, not American, right? I forget what I read about this movie, but I did read something about this a while ago.. googling again now..

Okay yeah, the story is based on a French guy who was sent to Japan to train their military. So casting a white guy for this role makes perfect sense to me. But I admit I know nothing about the history that this is based on and am only going by a cursory glance at wikipedia

I would have indeed rather watched a movie about samurai without Tom Cruise in it, but the story seems legit from a historical pov at least.

As I understand it. The role of Neo was originally written for Will Smith, but he thought the script/concept was too silly and turned the role down... to do Wild Wild West instead

Yeah, that's what I mean, the role doesn't seem to be tied to skin colour or ethnic background in any sort of way, so you can cast an actor from any part of the planet pretty much, assuming they can act and fit the role otherwise.

I dunno what Will Smith was thinking with WWW but hey, we all make mistakes I guess. I think him in the Neo role would have maybe steered the sequels in a different direction too? It just seems that he would have played Neo a bit differently. Keanu seems like such an iconic and perfect fit for the role, but that's of course said with 20 years of nostalgia behind it. He was just such a perfect and believable "average guy". Will Smith usually plays somebody cool and chic. I mean, he's a good actor, he'd have been able to squeeze into a nerdy role or whatever, but Keanu just does it so effortlessly, like he was born to play that role or something. And that's not because he's white, that's just who he is as a person and the way he carries himself.. and his acting profile I guess.

But that's what I mean, if a fictional character does not rely on race or ethnic background to tell his story, then you can cast that person as.. whoever. At times not even gender matters. But if the race matters to some degree then you should probably pay attention to the believability of who you are casting a bit. i.e. don't cast Jackie Chan as Queen Elizabeth, that's obviously not going to work. And Cleopatra probably shouldn't be played by Will Arnett unless it's a skit on SNL.

 

[Quintillus]

So you're saying this because you don't believe manly means having to be stoic is an outdated notion?

Incorrect. That's one definition of being manly, but far from the only one, and saying that to be manly requires being stoic is an outdated notion.

But I can also see where the correlation between stoicism and manliness comes from. Mainly because, like Valka, I had a stoic grandfather. In his case, I'm sure you could attribute a fair amount of it to the culture of the times, but I suspect it also was a means of coping with growing up poor in the Great Depression and serving in WWII (both the experience and the culture in the armed forces). Those were both tough situations with real risks of harm, and without a realistic way to get out of them other than to make it through to the other side, whenever that would be. I can see how that would encourage becoming more stoic, and how being stoic would help one make it through such times.

At the same time, stoic doesn't mean not having emotions - more so it's a means of coping with significant negative events without outwardly showing emotion. If you'd met my grandfather in 1946, from all the stories I've heard, you'd probably never guess he was stoic. Those were the good years after the war, and "party animal" would be a more likely trait you'd ascribe to him. Meet him after his family tragedy in the early '50s, though, and you'd probably describe him as stoic, whereas someone with a different background may not have been.

In today's less difficult times, there are fewer advantages to being stoic, and that's a good thing. We have more options for effective coping that someone on warship that's taken casualties in combat.

 

[aelf]

You could try saying why you think this is valuable, instead of just bluntly repeating that it is valuable.

To these people, purity is prima facie desirable. Explains why they have issues with multi-culturalism and such, I suppose.

It's not outdated because I see a lot of young men adopting that sort of attitude from pickup artists/dating gurus over YouTube. The MGTOW community also seems very fond of stoicism as well, and there's quite a few younger men in that group.

So would you argue that the Taliban's attitude towards women is not outdated because the Taliban and some others still hold on to it?

Incorrect. That's one definition of being manly, but far from the only one, and saying that to be manly requires being stoic is an outdated notion.

Stop right there. If you do believe it's outdated, then it's the same as thinking it's on the waning side of history. The rest is just semantics and somewhat irrelevant family genealogy.