Improving on Monarch level

[Todelotti]

I'll stop it here as I realize I really should read a thread before making comments.

No no, don't stop! Nobody can expect that this whole thread must be read before adding comments to it. Your input was still very interesting and valuable.

Hope you don't get too confused by all the ideas flying about, Todelotti

Hm, I'm afraid I must disappoint your hope a bit...

OK, as far as I understood there is 1) the path via Cuirassiers, 2) the path via Steel. And because we go for Space victory the path via Steel is more attractive because it leads faster to the more advanced techs that we need for the space race. On the other hand Cuirs might help to get enough cities quicker to boost the economy for the space race. Hmmmm, difficult...

To summarize the game situation:

- I still have 2 turns in Golden Age
- I have finished Education this turn and also got the second GS this turn
- I CAN bulb Liberalism to around 80% with that GS NOW (@kevtrev: It's a misunderstanding that I would bulb Lib to 100%, my earlier replies were probably too confusing, sorry)
- No AI has Paper, so they can't have Education
- Gilgamesh most likely has Feudalism (because he doesn't want it from me nor any prerequisite tech like Monarchy, etc.)
- I have explored all his cities now with my scout and he doesn't have any longbow yet. But because he (probably) has Feudalism I guess he can quickly whip/upgrade/produce some if he needs to.
- I can declare war against Giggles NOW and I have still movement points of my main stack that is already close to Giggles border. The stack would reach a small stack of 3 of Giggles' combat units + a worker. So, we might be able to finish off that stack this turn. From there it is 2 turns to Gilgamesh's east city. That might also go well without longbows. But then I have a way of 4 turns (or don't roads add +1 to the movement in enemy territory? Then it's even 8 turns...) to the next Sumerian city. So, he has time to bring some longbows then.
- For me the critical tech seems to be Machinery atm. No matter if we want to go Steel or Cuirs I need Machinery->Guilds->Gunpowder. It's also required for Printing Press, Engineering, Optics.
- Mansa is researching Machinery now BUT: If he has finished it (in 6 or 7 turns) what do I trade for it? Mansa only needs Paper from me and Paper has around 150 beakers less than Machinery. So, it's unlikely that he will accept the trade. I would conclude: I MUST research Machinery myself, otherwise I am stuck with research (especially if I don't finish Liberalism to 100%).

Generally I would like to follow Panngaea's Steel path because it seems to make much sense for the space race and it's just different to what I'm used to play (Cuir), so very interesting. We are also getting Knights on that path which might help for the war before I have cannons (as long as BurgerKing doesn't cancel the Horse deal).

So my proposal is:

- I declare war NOW.
- Then I bribe Zara to declare war against Gilgamesh. (I can't bribe BurgerKing nor anyone else.)
- Then I attack.
- I bulb Liberalism NOW to 80% and maybe put another turn into it to stop 1 turn before completion.
- Then I research Machinery.

If we see that the war becomes really difficult we could (after Gunpowder for example) still consider going Cuirs first.

OK? Or not OK?

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, Todelotti, here is the plan for you:

1. You have to conquer Giggles fast, because we need his cities with as much pop as possible, because we want to build Universities to then build Oxford. Therefore, you should leave yourself enough catapults so you can take his cities ob the first turn. If you bombard too long, he'll whip and we need that pop.
2. Don't forget to switch to Slavery and OR again. Pick your 6 strongest city (but not the HE city, that one needs to continue to build troops) and spread your religion to them, we need the discount on buildings because Universities are 5pop-whips with having a Forge. Now you don't have Forges yet, so I propose that you whip them after the GA is finished and continue with Libraries + universities in those cities.
3. Research Gunpowder + Chemistry, then use Lib for Steel. Upgrade your cats to cannons afterwards, run 0% slider for this.

All clear?

 

[Seraiel]

P.S.: You can research Gunpowder with just having Edu, you don't need Machinery.

Your plan sounds good, except the part with the conquest. Plz post a screen of Giggles territory.

 

[Todelotti]

Oooooooooohhhhh, I can go GunPowder directly from Education without Mach->Guilds!!!!!! I overlooked that, forget my last post!

Edit: crosspost, @Seraiel, just saw it myself in the tech tree...

 

[Pangaea]

I wouldn't want you to self-tech Machinery, especially when Mansa is already doing it (for you). Check the tech screen for what other techs he can research, and then perhaps do one of those instead. Didn't you mentioned Divine Right earlier? It's kind of a useless tech in terms of what it brings you, but it's actually really good trade bait.

In that screen, also check if Giggles can research Feudalism. But if I understood you correctly, you already have it yourself, and if it then doesn't appear as something Giggles wants (and he has Monarchy) then he must have it himself already. Unfortunately that means you'll face longbows sooner or later, which is a pain But as long as you focus on non-hill cities, catas can still do a decent enough job on them, and elephants are strong attackers, especially when you collateral down the longbow(s) a bit.

Could you post a save game, so we can take a closer look?

edit: Damn, I'm getting NINJA'd HARD today...

 

[Seraiel]

Before we order him to reaearch Divine Right, I'd suppose Nationalism instead. Not rhat much more beakers, but Mansa could be lead on the Constitution path ^^

 

[Pangaea]

Yeah, that's a good idea, as he'll want Taj Mahal anyway.

 

[Todelotti]

Current save attached (Turn 141 - 620 AD) and screenshot of Sumerian Empire:

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, those cities are really widespread, now I understand why you'll need so many moves.

Pull it off, and good RNG luck .

 

[Seraiel]

Btw. Todelotti, you're posting every screen twice lately ^^

 

[Todelotti]

Btw. Todelotti, you're posting every screen twice lately ^^

Hm, I'm using the "manage attachments" button, then upload, then drag the jpg link into the text box and put an IMG tag around. Yes, I see that the image is then in the post as attachment and embedded in the text as well, so kind of twice. How can I avoid that? Can I delete the attachment for example and the embedded image still stays there?

 

[Seraiel]

Hm, I'm using the "manage attachments" button, then upload, then drag the jpg link into the text box and put an IMG tag around. Yes, I see that the image is then in the post as attachment and embedded in the text as well, so kind of twice. How can I avoid that? Can I delete the attachment for example and the embedded image still stays there?

If the screens arw online somewhere already, you don't need to attach them.

 

[Todelotti]

If the screens arw online somewhere already, you don't need to attach them.

I upload from local disk and they are apparently stored under the civfanatics.com domain after upload (that's where the created URL refers to) and automatically added as attachment. I wasn't sure if they get deleted from the image storage of the domain when I click "remove attachment" which would make my embedded link broken. Nevermind, I'll simply test it at the next occasion.

 

[Pangaea]

Quite spread out there, indeed, but it should be doable I would think. But the issue is we'll be facing longbows pretty soon. I opened the save and instantly declared war on the little pecker. Took Ur, but lost 2 catas in the process (evil RNG). First I upgraded three of them to CR+Accuracy, to take away the 40% right away, then attacked. This was after wiping the stack he had here and there, and stealing the worker. City fell without issues. But I can imagine we'll face longbows for the next city. Thankfully only one of his cities is on hills, so that will make it more manageable.

You are so far ahead in tech here, that it should be possible to Lib something good. Think I'd prefer Steel, because when facing Longbows, it's nice to rip them to shreds with Cannons, and you want to war more after taking out Giggles anyway.

I know this goes counter to what Seraiel said earlier about working the wine, but I worked max scientists in Uppsala to get very close to another GS while we get so many bonuses during the GA. He can be used to bulb into Chemistry for instance, if you're trying to Lib Steel.

Mansa might be an issue for Lib if you want to take Steel, but I'm pretty sure you can peace vassal him after the Giggles war due to bordering tiles and a big military, and then you can steer him away from Lib, and of course feed you useful techs by directing his research.

Edit: Oh nuts, after I played a couple turns...

Spoiler :

Mansa peace vassaled to Ramsses instead

 

[Seraiel]

I believe bulbin Chemistry requires PP, that's why I proposed standard research.

 

[Pangaea]

Played to turn 149, 780AD, and took two cities.

Spoiler :

Haven't lost any attackers, but have lost 4-5 catapults, and have taken the city in the east and Eridu. Two longbows in Eridu, so you'll be faced with them pretty quickly. As long as you have plenty of siege, however, it should be fine. Hopefully you can take all his cities before Castles appear, which shouldn't be a problem because Giggles is really backwards.

National Epic is complete, the south is cleared of barbs and fogbusted with 2 warriors and 2 archers. The western barb galley is gone to a trireme, but I'm not sure where the southern one went yet.

Used the spare GS to bulb most of Lib, and then put 0% research into Gunpowder. Didn't really pay much attention to micro management and such, and maybe it would be better to start on Nationalism instead. I kind of like the idea of Divine Right, however. I traded Paper+Drama for Machinery with Charlie, and you should then be able to get Engineering from Mansa for DR. Nationalism isn't something I'd want to trade away early anyway, as it jeopardises Taj Mahal, which you definitely want.

Bummer about Mansa peace vassaling to Ramsses instead, because he's a great vassal to have.

 

[Pangaea]

Hm, I'm using the "manage attachments" button, then upload, then drag the jpg link into the text box and put an IMG tag around. Yes, I see that the image is then in the post as attachment and embedded in the text as well, so kind of twice. How can I avoid that? Can I delete the attachment for example and the embedded image still stays there?

No worries about that, I do that too sometimes when I can't be bothered to upload them elsewhere, and I think it's nice to have the pictures in the post itself, like you do, instead of the popup thing. If you delete the attachment, the embedded picture won't work, because it's hosted on civfanatics. You can use an offside image hosting of course, but it's pretty easy to just upload here. Until you have filled the account

 

[Seraiel]

How is that even possible? We are Mansa's land target, so we need only 1.5 times of Mansa's power while Ramesses need 3 times his power. Does he have so much more land and troops than we have?

Trading away Nationalism wirhout having Marble to speed up the TM I also don't like, but otoh, we're playing against Monarch AIs.

 

[Pangaea]

Ramesses borders with Mansa too, so the same would apply there, and since he has 9 or 10 cities, he probably has a decent-sized military too, at least compared with Mansa. We don't have enough border tiles with Mansa either, not until that former Giggles city comes out of revolt (at least I think that was the case pre-war). The timing is just a little wrong I guess

Edit: Yep, I checked out the save again pre-war, and we have only a sea tile that touches.

 

[Todelotti]

@Pangaea: Did you keep Ur or did you raze it? The city location doesn't look very good, does it? Just the Spice tile, 2 FPs and 6 grassland tiles. Is it worth to keep the city?