Improving on Monarch level

[Seraiel]

Single Player and Multiplayer are always completely different, I experienced that in all MMOs with PvE Nd PvP.

Interestingly though, the PvPers need only little time to adapt to PvE, but many PvEers suck hard in PvP and also can't learn it, because they're so sure that what they do is right.

PvP players pay attentio. To what is happening around them, PvEers only concentrate on their char. Impossible to kill people if not looking at the situation. I've also already see PvEers dying in huge areas of damage while not even noticing thy stood in one, only because they tried to do max DPS. [emoji38]

 

[Todelotti]

Ever turn is necessary, because AI stacks lose their complete commands when i.e. Being deterred by 1 unit.

Ah, that's why I always had the feeling they just don't do what I want. But I gave them the command only once.


Now, 6 turns in Golden Age are played.

The Barbs are annoying. I'v built a Trireme in Tenochtitlan, attacked that Barb Galley with 88% combat odds and lost. Building directly the next Trireme now. Moreover a second Barb Galley appeared at Bjorgvin coast. I couldn't stop that one and it destroyed the crabs. Because after the trade of my second crabs with BurgerKing I lost a health point which causes that Birka is now shrinking faster than calculated. In addition the Barb Archer moved onto the Birka sheeps (which seems to cause that I can't work the tile, didn't know that) which further increased the shrinking speed. Luckily the Archer didn't pillage the sheeps but attacked the city and lost.

But due to all this Birka will lose a population point next turn, unless I fire 2 of the 5 Merchants. What shall I do? Sacrifice the pop or fire the Merchants? Note that I won't get a GM in this Golden Age in any case. Also Nidaros is unhealthy now but won't lose pop until the end of the GA.

The Sword also pillaged a farm at Uppsala but that's no big tragedy because it wasn't worked anyway right now. The Sword still lives but is only one tile away from 2 elephants. The next turn will decide if I can catch him.

Other infos and questions:

- The next GS is born. His task his to light bulb Liberalism, is that right? I just finished Education and could bulb immediately now.

- Traded Feudalism for Philosophy with BurgerKing and got an additional +1 with him ("shared tech secrets") but he's still cautious.

- Mansa finished Feudalism and is researching Machinery now (7 turns to go).

- Edit: And I traded Compass for 110 Gold with Ramesses which improved the fair trade bonus to +4. (The 110 Gold were probably failgold because Mansa completed the Hanging Gardens this turn.)

 

[Seraiel]

You researched complete Edu without bulbing? Well m, that was fast ^^ . Yes, bulb Liberalism but don't complete it, we want to have somthing like Communism as thw free tech. Continue with Prinring Press followed by Gunpowder and Chemistry.

And fire those 2 Merchants, you don't want to lose pop, it's way to valuable.

 

[Pangaea]

Keep in mind that if you want to bulb into Liberalism, you CANNOT get Machinery first. Then the bulb path will change, and it will be Printing Press IIRC.

I wouldn't let the city starve btw, especially when you can't get a GM in this golden age anyway. Barbs can be a huge pain in your side, which is why it's so important to fogbust areas where they can spawn fairly early on. Sucks to lose at 88% too. This is why I prefer to let the barbs attack me while I'm situated in a coastal tile for the extra defence. You can still lose, but at least the odds is better. Really bad luck to lose at 88% though. It's when stuff like that happens, in such important battles, I want to put my fist through a wall

Edit: xposted.

 

[Seraiel]

Good point from Pangaea with Machinery screwing any Lib bulbs, listen good to that.

 

[Todelotti]

You researched complete Edu without bulbing?

No, the largest part was bulbed with the first GS. This one for Liberalism is already the second GS in the Golden Age. In 2 turns I'll get the third GS.

This is why I prefer to let the barbs attack me while I'm situated in a coastal tile for the extra defence. You can still lose, but at least the odds is better.

Arrrgghh, you are absolutely right, that was just stupid by me again to attack the Galley myself. The Galley was in that bay at Tenochtitlan. There was no risk it could destroy something and I could just have parked my Trireme at the bay exit with the defense bonus. I could hammer my fist against my head.

OK, I fire the 2 Merchants now.

@Seraiel: After bulbing Liberalism to 80% or so I can't go Printing Press atm because it requires Machinery. Almost everything depends on Machinery now. Only Divine Right and Nationalism are options besides Liberalism. Or researching Machinery myself (3 or 4 turns, Mansa needs 7). What about the path: Bulbing 80% liberalism, finishing liberalism, taking Nationalism as the free tech, then researching Military Tradition. After that Mansa will have Machinery, I can trade something for it and continue with Printing Press and the other stuff that depends on Machinery.

 

[Seraiel]

You could go Gunpowder first.

Rhe argument for the Cuirrs is strong though, because the earlier you get additional cities, the earlier you get more research, so you can do it if you want. I have no experience what is better, Communism is a big tech that's also very attractive because of the State Property civic, but if you choose that way, you must be able to conquer with Elephants 'til then, and once the AIs get Longbows that is not necessarily so funny.

 

[Pangaea]

I assume the others aren't close to Liberalism yet, so then you can try to get something better than Nationalism with it. Maybe you can go all the way and Lib Steel? Then you can kill with just about anything as cleanup troops. In a space game you don't really want to Lib Military Tradition, because you don't need that tech for space, so it makes more sense to take something else instead, that bring you towards more important late-game goals.

Nobody else has Education yet, right? Hold onto that, and don't trade it away. If you do, the other AIs can quickly go for Lib, and you don't want that if you are to try to grab something expensive with Lib. Steel can be a juicy choice, if you can get it.

Edit: Having said that, it still makes some sense to go with Cuirs, as it's easy to get many more cities with them. And once the AIs get Castles and Longbows, it's a bloody nightmare to take them on unless you have troops that are immune to those awful things, which Cuirs are. Cannons are pretty good in that department too of course, but come later. With cannons you will lose less troops, though, so that's a positive too. It must be judged in each game what is most important.

 

[Todelotti]

Yes, I think there is nobody close to Education right now. So, if I don't go Liberalism->Nationalism now, I have to research Machinery myself.

One aspect that I just noticed and that might speak for getting Machinery quickly is that it would unlock my UU, the Berserker (= Viking Mazeman). It has 10% city attack bonus over the standard Maze and Amphibious promotion which might be helpful when attacking Giggles' capital Uruk because the city is behind a river when approaching from south. Maybe the Berserker could become handy when I start the war now?

Another option - but I would delay getting the Berserker then - could be to research Liberalism normally without bulbing but stop 1 turn before finishing. At that point Mansa will probably have Machinery finished. I can trade for it, continue with Printing Press etc. I had saved then the GS for bulbing something else (what?). Somewhere later before the AIs come close I can put the last turn into Liberalism and select some interesting free tech.

 

[Seraiel]

Read my post again.

 

[Seraiel]

I like the cannons idea from pangaea very much btw.. Todelotti could keep all his old units and fight the AIs with Elephants and Cannons and get IW early on top.

 

[kevtrev]

The Barbs are annoying. I'v built a Trireme in Tenochtitlan, attacked that Barb Galley with 88% combat odds and lost.

There are two rolls that are fixed in CIV: one is getting a Great Artist instead of a Scientist at extremely low odds in the NE city, the other is trireme vs. galley loss. It's happened to me so many times that I now always do as Pangaea says and defend.

The next GS is born. His task his to light bulb Liberalism, is that right? I just finished Education and could bulb immediately now.

If you went ahead and bulbed Lib you could then tech or trade Machinery without any problems, and then go PP-GP-Chem. Lib would be 1 or 2 turns of normal research from completion, and you would obviously wait to finish it for something bigger than Nat or MT as the others suggest - like Communism or Biology.

The other option would be to go straight for your cuir war, in which case tech nationalism and lib MT. Then you only need Gpowder to upgrade your elephants with the cash from the trade mission your GM runs. Steel is great but is arguably overkill for this map, plus 2-move units will make the war quicker.

Whether you go lib MT or delay lib for later depends on whether the civs you want to kill have feudalism. 1 longbow in a hill city can take 2 catapult hits with barely a scratch, whereas upgraded cuirs will slice through them.

 

[kevtrev]

I think I misunderstood why you can't bulb lib: because the GS does it all in one turn, right? Not a problem you get on the higher levels...

Surprised to see Sera seconds the cannons idea, but what do I know? I guess the reasoning makes sense, and they will kill everything with minimal losses... only slowly. What nat wonder would you pair IW with?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I like the cannons idea from pangaea very much btw.. Todelotti could keep all his old units and fight the AIs with Elephants and Cannons and get IW early on top.

But, but... he could also have 2 stacks :
- One old stack with siege and 1-movers ;
- One mounted stack.

The stack with siege can aim for the more central, better defended cities to bring an additional support. Or, on the contrary, it can aim for peripheral cities when it appears it is really outdated.
The mounted stack can either benefit of siege (where it is) or capture cities at its own pace.
The 1-movers may not be of much use but there's no reason to dismiss them. If there can be 10 or so Trebuchets in there, 3-5 Elephants, 5-7 Macemen, 1 pikeman and 1 crossbow, then the stack will be solid to the game's end. And it will be able to capture cities on its own.
Note : random numbers, here. I have no idea what the standing army looks like, apart that there are Elephants. I don't know either what the tech level of the rivals is.


Being already 1st in score hints at a very dominant position (land area ? population ? food per turn ? hammers ?)
Gilgamesh probably is the next target (yes ?) and has only 5 cities, so he should be an easy pick. This is all the more reason to go for speed.

What I think is that :
- siege is best to save units in difficult wars ;
- mounted is far superior in easier wars.

If the situation is as advantageous as it seems, then mounted is probably the right pick.
It's not like you're gonna crash cavalries on infantries, right ?
If you ain't ever gonna meet a musketman, then you should go for Cuirassiers.




Note 2 :
"- Mansa finished Feudalism and is researching Machinery now (7 turns to go)."
Now what if you're facing Archers ?

 

[Seraiel]

You didn't read that we're playing for Space BiC. Cannons would be superb, because then he could conquer with a lot less troops. Cuirassiers are imho to expensive for Space Races when I think about it.

 

[Pangaea]

If the idea is just to win the game, then Cuirs is certainly the faster and easier way. But as I understood it, the purpose was now to go to space, to learn more about late era gaming too, and then it does make some sense to go the cannon route. If Gilga doesn't get longbows, he can still kill him with catas and elephants, and that war should probably start now anyway, so he can at least grab some cities before Gilga possibly gets longbows.

You're gearing up for war now, so this may not be the best timing, but I'll mention it anyway. When going for Space, it's important to get up Oxford as soon as possible, and with Education you can already build Universities. It can then be a good idea to turn off research and save up gold, until you can get +100% in the capital with Oxford, and then research hard and fast once Oxford is up. In a space game Writeup, I actually saved up 5000 when building Universities and Oxford, and then teched hard after that. You can take a look at that game if you want

 

[Seraiel]

He doesn't have the cities for universities yet. I also thought about it, but he needs the cities from Giggles to construct Universities in an ok time.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

You didn't read that we're playing for Space BiC.

True ! You can read my mind
I suppose Military Tradition would be a useless tech, then. Or a detour, at least.
And using Liberalism to get it would be a waste. Well, a costly investment.
Steel, indeed, is a much more appealing economic tech target... but not so much for Canons, rather for Corporations.

The Taj Mahal is a key wonder, otoh. So Nationalism is a good tech to have... Although it isn't the best tech to rush (the larger the Empire, the better).
And speed still retains its value. The faster the conquest, the faster cities come out of revolt.

What kind of stacks will he be facing ?
Maybe Knights can do the trick ? Attacking into spears and archers, you know...
... maybe with some Trebuchet support for 60% culture cities.



If the army isn't an issue, then Liberalism should be used on a real economic target.
Steel, sure, if going for Mining Inc... but, is that the case ?
Otherwise, something like Steam Power/Assembly Line (Factories !) or down Scientific Method (Communism/Biology, depends) all seem like valid choices to me.

I'll stop it here as I realize I really should read a thread before making comments.

 

[Pangaea]

He doesn't have the cities for universities yet. I also thought about it, but he needs the cities from Giggles to construct Universities in an ok time.

Ah yes, that's right. In any case war is the right choice now, as he needs more land and time really flies in this time period. Suddenly it's 1000AD and there are castles and longbows everywhere, or worse.

Hope you don't get too confused by all the ideas flying about, Todelotti

This has become a really good thread for learning, so I hope many lurkers are following it too.

 

[Seraiel]

The speed at which he can acquire the cities is actually also the thing I couldn't make an estimate to see what value libbing cuirrs would have. Rhe advantage for cuirrs is, that his military is completely elephants that can be upgraded. Left-over Catapults can play CG.
Problem: He doesn' have the pop to whip additional Cuirrs, and 15 to 20 won't be enough for all. We need the pop to build Universities, so steel vould be really great, not for Mining but for cannons. He cohls take over the whole map with 10 Cannons and 20 clean-up units.

What I'm not sure about, is, if Lib Communism wouldn't be stronger. It's only 2 techs feom Steel and Communism is a game-changer with SP and Kremlin.