In which we discuss Madurismo

[Traitorfish]

^That is straight out of President for Life Castro's manual. Cubans who oppose him are the Miami mafia, and not true Cubans. Anyone opposed to Maduro, the prophet of Chávez, who listens to the spirit of the deceased leader and the millions and millionesses of people who are real patriots, all the rest are traitors and have to be exterminated.

I'm pretty sure that rhetoric pre-dates Castro. You'll find it coming from the Montagnards, at the very least.

 

[Takhisis]

Nonsense. The universe started when He set us free from the Amerikaner devils.

 

[Azale]

Maduro is leftwing? Well… if were starting by such definitions…

He defines himself as a socialist, though I am inclined not to count him as "one of ours"

Anyway… that article says there is no economic crisis in Venezuela. Which is patently false and the authors are being disingenuous at best, barefaced lairs at worst.

They say that there are economic troubles but that they are being exaggerated. Maybe, maybe not. Your refutation is to scoff and exchange lol smilies. That's fine, but it's not very convincing.

It also says that granting Maduro these superpowers does not threaten democracy. So sorry, but the experience of the last ten years in Argentina (and also, sporadically throughout Chávez's authoritarian regime) is proof to the contrary.

What about the experience of Venezuela? Apparently these superpowers are not particularly rare. I think the PDSV should hold themselves to a higher standard, but it's not Castro.

Also, hard to take you seriously when you call Chavez authoritarian. It cheapens the word and just sounds like lazy Western editorializing.

Currently the government earns Venezuela's dollars through oil exports and then distributes them to importers at a controlled rate in a system not very different from that applied during the "economic miracle" in South Korea which moved that country "from third world to first" (Korean capital controls were actually much more stringent than Venezuela's)-> South Korea was a military dictatorship under U.S. occupation.

I don't think there was anything inherently undemocratic about SK's capital controls, nor the capital controls used by many countries (authoritarian and democratic) throughout history. The point I think they were making is that they are not in and of themselves the sign of economic mismanagement.

Also, "under U.S. occupation" is not a correct description of South Korea after about 1955 and certainly not during the Park Chung Hee administration.

 

[Takhisis]

They say that there is no economic crisis and don't even cite any economic data, Azale, and that's how seriously I'm taking their article. Just because someone does a lot of swashbuckling and attacks the US (while selling them a lot of oil to stay afloat) doesn't mean they're good.

Not even heinz Dieterich considers Chávez to be a 'socialist' anymore.

 

[BirraImperial]

The radicalization of the leftist movements in Latin America is quite common. Enemies of their leaders or even people that simply don't agree with one or several policies are regarded as "traitors" or part of the "Bourgeoise mafia".

 

[ReindeerThistle]

To the Right-Wing anti-BRV posters I say this: I respect your positions but you are wrong and on the wrong side of history.

To the Left-Wing anti-BRV posters I say this: I wish you well and a better perspective in the future than in the past.

To people who refuse to take a side: This is nothing in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead armadillos.

To the pro-BRV posters: you ain't seen nothing yet. There are two sides and the opposition to the Bolivarian revolution, both from within and without, is heqvily financed and influenced by the US -- this has been documented by objective sources and is available via FOIA.

Oh yeah, haven't read a single post past page one... but I know where this is going.

Toodles!

 

[Takhisis]

You have stated clearly that you understand not a jot of what has been posted or discussed here. I feel personally and deeply insulted by your post. Keep it to yourself in the future.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

You have stated clearly that you understand not a jot of what has been posted or discussed here. I feel personally and deeply insulted by your post. Keep it to yourself in the future.

I haven't read anything past page 1, so this is my omni-response. I made no such personal attacks nor will I. Nothing of what I wrote is an attack.

I am sorry if you were offended, but I am speaking my mind.

 

[Takhisis]

No, you're not speaking your own mind. You're coming to a thread uninvited to thumb your nose at everyone and even revel in the fact that you care so little about this that you haven't read what anyone has posted and you wont' bother to in the future. You contribute nothing and take away a lot, like a keyboard hooligan. Just stop posting. It is an attack, it is insulting, it is unwelcome. Again, stop posting.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

No, you're not speaking your own mind. You're coming to a thread uninvited to thumb your nose at everyone and even revel in the fact that you care so little about this that you haven't read what anyone has posted and you wont' bother to in the future. You contribute nothing and take away a lot, like a keyboard hooligan. Just stop posting. It is an attack, it is insulting, it is unwelcome. Again, stop posting.

I now have read the rest of the posts, and I have this to say:

Spoiler :

To the Right-Wing anti-BRV posters I say this: I respect your positions but you are wrong and on the wrong side of history.

To the Left-Wing anti-BRV posters I say this: I wish you well and a better perspective in the future than in the past.

To people who refuse to take a side: This is nothing in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead armadillos.

To the pro-BRV posters: you ain't seen nothing yet. There are two sides and the opposition to the Bolivarian revolution, both from within and without, is heavily financed and influenced by the US -- this has been documented by objective sources and is available via FOIA.

Oh yeah, haven't read a single post past page one... but I know where this is going.
...

I stand by what I posted. And you do not have to keep trying to shoo me from this post. I willingly leave to pursue what I do best -- recruiting revolutionaries. You're welcome Tak...

 

[classical_hero]

That is simply a meaningless post you posted. It just simply doesn't belong in this thread.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

That is simply a meaningless post you posted. It just simply doesn't belong in this thread.

That does it. I am staying. Stand by later for some truth squad action to counter the baseless lies cited in this thread.

 

[Bugfatty300]

I'm looking forward to your viewpoints RT. This thread is fun to lurk.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Venezuela is destroyed. Its heading towards blood.

That's all I have to say about this. Those supportive of Maduro in this thread are supporting a Mugabe like figure who is bent on making Venezuela a colony of Cuba.

I wish this was hyperbole.

 

[illram]

Moderator Action: Coming into a thread and saying you haven't read anything, but everyone else is wrong, is spam at best. Could be an infraction for Trolling but it's the Holidays and I am feeling chipper.

This is a Chamber (soon to be Red Diamond) thread. Please be conscientious and respectful and keep the conversation moving. First and only warning.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[TheLastOne36]

So the opposition won several recent elections in various states of Venezuela and Maduro has decided to set up parallel 'official' governments in the states where the opposition won, with the governor being given the title "Protector of <state>".

This is just sad.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Anti-Capitalist Offensive Delivers Bolivarian Victory in Venezuelan Municipal Elections

The December 8th municipal elections in Venezuela gave yet another victory to the Bolivarian revolution, with the Socialist United Party (PSUV) and its allies in the Great Patriotic Pole receiving 5.1 million votes (49.24% of the total) and 4.4 million (42.72%) going to the opposition. If you count the votes for Bolivarian candidates outside of the main GPP alliance, the total for the revolution adds up over 54%.
The turnout was 58.92%, much higher than in most European countries for equivalent elections and higher than in the regional elections of a year ago when it was just under 54%.

The opposition had presented these elections as a plebiscite on Maduro's presidency. They promised to win the overall vote and get 100 mayors elected. If that was the case, then the result is clear: not only did they lose the vote, but the advantage of the Bolivarian revolution over the opposition significantly increased, from only 1.49 percentage points in the April 14 presidential election to 6.52 now. As for the number of mayors, with most results already in, the PSUV and allies elected 234, for the opposition's 67.

The Caracas Libertador municipality in the capital was won by PSUV candidate Jorge Rodríguez with 474.227 votes (54,55%), who won even in 4 parishes which had voted for the opposition in April.
The Caracas Metropolitan race resulted in a very close win for the opposition, with incumbent Antonio Ledezma winning with 50.81% of the vote, a reduced margin from his previous win with 52.4% in 2008.

The PSUV and its allies won in 14 out of the country’s 24 state capitals, and in 30 out of the country’s 40 most populated cities. However, the opposition won in important state capitals such as Valencia and Barquisimeto (which previously had Bolivarian mayors) as well as mantaining Barinas, Maracaibo, Mérida and San Cristobal.

The opposition is still strong... and they are making their impact. But I would hardly call the situation sad that in spite of intense (and US-backed) opposition to the Bolivarian government, they are stil strong, too.

 

[Takhisis]

Anti-Capitalist Offensive Delivers Bolivarian Victory in Venezuelan Municipal Elections

I lvoe your war communiqués. They show to what an extent you are ignorant of anythign that happens in this continent, yet you continue to tell everyone from other countries what to do and how to live their lives. It's so 1950s 'Murica&#8230;

Moderator Action: Please heed the warning up-thread. No drive-by comments. Please participate in the discussion in a meaningful and respectful way.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Municipal Election Results: Venezuela Winning the War Waged against It

From Venezuelanalysis, Dec 9, 2013

Going through the results respectively (mostly based on the first bulletin, with 97% of votes counted): In the first instance, the PSUV as an organisation got 4,584,477 votes, or 44.16%, the MUD got 40.96%, the PCV got 1.6%, and other organisations got 13.36% of the vote. In the second instance, PSUV candidates, supported by a range of organisations, received 5,111,336 votes, or 49.24%, and the opposition candidates, supported by the MUD and by other opposition parties, got 4,435,097 votes, or 42.72%, and others received 8.03%. In the last instance, one divides the “others” in to pro-revolution, and against the revolution. According to President Maduro, that makes the spread 54% pro revolution to 45% against it, though of course these numbers are more subjective, depending on one’s interpretation of each independent and small party’s politics, and verifying those numbers would involve going through thousands of individual candidate results.
On a municipality basis, the PSUV won outright, as it has much more support in the more rural and poorer areas, while the opposition’s support is almost entirely concentrated in the wealthier areas of the big cities. So far out of a total of 337, the PSUV has won 210 municipalities, the MUD 53, other parties 8, and the rest are still undecided. The opposition won by some decent margins in some of Venezuela’s biggest cities, with 67.6% of the vote in San Cristobal, 63.88% of the vote in Merida, 55.87% in Carabobo, 51.8% in Maracaibo, and 50.81% in Metropolitan Caracas. Caracas was clearly quite close, and the PSUV won Libertador municipality, Caracas, with 54.55%. Detailed CNE results can be foundhere


Whichever numbers you use though, the revolution clearly won. Further, despite being local elections, because of the political weight they were given, particularly by the opposition, the results consolidate Maduro’s leadership. The number breakdown is also very consistent with results for other non-presidential elections over the last 7 years or so.

More news from the people on the ground in Venezuela.

 

[Agent327]

So judging from those results, Venezuela is winning the war against its big cities. It's interesting how you can turn news into propaganda, isn't it?