In which we discuss Madurismo

Takhisis

¡Patria y vida!
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Let's try not to take some of the extreme positions I've seen in some Tavern threads.

Some facts:
Maduro has won in disputed -to say the least- elections. With foreign intrvention in those.
  • He rules in the name of a deceased leader with whom he communicates spiritually, somehow.
  • He's now begun missile tests.
  • He has started a plan to arm militias of his own (the workers' militias tha defend the revolution, etc.) and claims that, the more gunmen under his command, the more he'll be respected.
  • He has also claimed that he knows the names of nearly a million voters who -he claims- forgot their loyalty to Chávez and voted against him.

Is this the poor man's North Korea?
I haven't yet heard anything from him as regarding actual policy, unless arming thw 'workers' to kill workers who oppose him is a policy. Also, a pro-government show (La Hojilla) has been cancelled and its leader sent to Cuba for 'medical treatment', just after he made a humungous slip and got caught on tape admitting to corruption.
Wahoo.

Can anyone point out good points that would somehow justify all this nonsense? A rational response would be welcome.
 
I got nothing. As crass and authoritarian Chavez could be, at least he seemed to be able to transition his policies into action (whether they were good policies is another matter). Maduro just comes across as a crazy loon who managed to get into power because he was a good sycophant.
 
Is he actually arming the militias, or are they arming themselves and he's just not in a position to stop them, so he's pretending like it was his idea? (Possibly both?)
 
If we view all those actions through the lens of "don't try to topple me American pig-dogs" it all makes perfect sense.
 
Of course, Masada, but some of those American pigdogs and others take to defending Maduro and his fellow rulers even from across the sea.
Is he actually arming the militias, or are they arming themselves and he's just not in a position to stop them, so he's pretending like it was his idea? (Possibly both?)
The former applies to Venezuela, the latter will happen sooner or later -later, I think- in Argentina.
 
I thought Argentina had stabilized? You do seem constantly unhappy but he haven't heard much about Argentina here!
 
Is he actually arming the militias, or are they arming themselves and he's just not in a position to stop them, so he's pretending like it was his idea? (Possibly both?)

He is arming the militias under command from Cuba, so the former. Maduro's claimed he wants an army of two million people ala North Korea, but admits an army of 300-500k is more reasonable.

Minister Jesse Chacon revealed plans for a new "Cuban Electricity Savings Program" that will reduce electricity consumption to better model the 'Cuban Ideal' and force a limit on the amount of electricity the 'wasteful' Venezuelan population consumes daily.

In other news, Globovision is officially Madurista as of two days ago.

However, the biggest news of the past few days is the leaked telephone conversation between Mario Silva and a Cuban Secret Service agent. Mario Silva was Chavez' amigo, strong government supporter, television host and apparently a Cuban undercover agent.

Here is the leak conversation: www.dolartoday.com/el-audio-de-mario-silva-en-alta-definicion/
And here is the English transcript: http://www.eluniversal.com/nacional-y-politica/130524/transcript-of-mario-silvas-recording


@Takhisis, I am hearing rumors that Cristina Fernandez had her husband murdered? What's that all about?
 
I thought Argentina had stabilized? You do seem constantly unhappy but he haven't heard much about Argentina here!
Maduro doesn't rule Argentina, although with our present kleptocracy (decried by such rightist oppressive elements as the Socialist Party, Workers' Party and Communist Party), we're en route to their situation. We can always start a thread!
@Takhisis, I am hearing rumors that Cristina Fernandez had her husband murdered? What's that all about?
What?
 
This is what I'm referring too.

Maduro said something about it during one of his daily rueda de prensas, to prove how evil bourgeoisie are trying to stop the revolution in the rest of Latin America or some other nonsense.

I take it from your lack of knowledge that this wasn't even news in Argentina?
 
Maduro has officially banned the screening/broadcasting of political rallies not held by himself. Democracy at work!


@TLO36: I wouldn't put it past her, he verbally and physically abused -nearly assaulted- her for decades before he died and he was said to treat her like a dog, often beating her with newspapers, and she's already ordered assassinations of rivals so it'd be another rung down the ladder.
But, innocent until proven guilty. Also, we're more concerned with what she's doing now, such as embezzling hundreds of millions a la Ferdinando marco, by now it's a few billions siphoned off as cash, property and offshore account holdings.
 
He is arming the militias under command from Cuba,

:sleep:

so the former. Maduro's claimed he wants an army of two million people ala North Korea, but admits an army of 300-500k is more reasonable.

Understandable, when The Power in the region refuses to recognize your government's legitimacy.

Minister Jesse Chacon revealed plans for a new "Cuban Electricity Savings Program" that will reduce electricity consumption to better model the 'Cuban Ideal' and force a limit on the amount of electricity the 'wasteful' Venezuelan population consumes daily.

Is he wrong?
 
I don't like quoting myself except in Tavern serial threads, Cheezy:
Let's try not to take some of the extreme positions I've seen in some Tavern threads.

(…)

Can anyone point out good points that would somehow justify all this nonsense? A rational response would be welcome.
 
Cheezy said that Maduro's actions were understandable, which is hardly an extreme position. Some of Genghis Chinghiz Khan's actions were understandable, doesn't mean I approve of the guy.
 
Understandable… without reading any of the articles cited or acknowledging the fact that Maduro is trying to establish respect among his own countrymen? He's already said he knows +900k voters' names who forgot to vote MAduro because their grief and love for Chávez made them vote the 'wrong' candidate…
 

This is not some conspiracy theory. There are over 200,000 Cubans in Venezuela that came out of nowhere, many of which are military personnel. Cuban military over the last few months have been regularly patrolling and training on Venezuelan soil. Venezuelans are second-class workers towards often poorly trained Cuban doctors and other social workers, and Cubans have found their ways into positions of power in the Venezuelan government. Heck just a few posts up I posted a leaked Cuban Intelligence call.

There is a reason why there are high-ranking Chavista Army officials resigning after having refused to take orders from Cuban superiors, violence in the recent elections where Venezuelans refused Cubans entry to polling stations, and Venezuelan statesman claiming Venezuela is becoming a colony of Cuba. Those Venezuelan statesman are not wrong in claiming so either, Cuba is extracting Venezuela's wealth and resources in a very exploitative manner.


Is he wrong?
Venezuela like many other South American countries is a country with a newly established and still rapidly growing middle class. The Venezuelan middle class depend on electricity for a variety of needs at home not too dissimilar to the west, off the top of my head, they have general lighting, fridges, televisions, computers, microwaves and air conditioning all reliant on electricity. I'd say those are mostly essential to maintaining the Venezuelan living standard. This same middle class often have businesses or work for businesses that require electricity to be productive, these businesses, especially the larger ones, are probably as wasteful in their energy usage as in the West. The Venezuelan poor, the large demographic of people living in the barrios but not in absolute poverty, are just as reliant on lighting, air conditioning, fridges, etc. as the middle class. Overall I think this paints a picture of energy consumption of the typical Venezuelan, not nearly as wasteful as say Americans, but the country does rely on electricity in maintaining it's average standard of living and in maintaining it's economy on both a micro and macro level. Pretty typical really, for a more developed Latin American country of today.

Now for what I personally saw while living in Venezuela is a different story. The story is simple, power outages every day, sometimes multiple times day, lasting for 2-4 hours on average in the cities. In the rural regions and where the barrios are, they regularly went for days without electricity. For my understanding it's gotten worse since leaving the country as well. This daily routine disrupts life in Venezuela, damages electronics, ruins perishable foods, hurts businesses reliant on electricity, reduces productivity and employment, and given that you live next to the equator and are dependent on air conditioning, harmful to health. To even state that Venezuelans are wasteful users of electricity given the current state of affairs in the country is outrageous at the very very least.

The worst part is that I don't see how electricity and power is an issue that even needs to be up for debate in a country like Venezuela. Venezuela is one of the most energy rich countries in the world with huge oil and natural gas reserves and extraordinary natural hydroelectric potential. (Not to mention Chavez' vision for a nuclear power program, though I think that probably died with him) Venezuela should be able power it's entire country with hydroelectricity alone, without the need for using it's oil and gas reserves for power, let alone having regular daily blackouts.
 
I wouldn't put Chávez's plans for nuclear power out of the picture now that Mduro is using Cuban technicians to restore and launch missiles.
 
Nuclear power should be pretty well dead now for anyone not pursuing weapons. It can't be economically justified. Any nation that needs to be adding capacity now can do so cheaper and safer with other methods. Particularly the renewables are now sufficiently mature. Not to mention those hydro resources available.

If Venezuela is failing at that, then it represents a real failure of management, investment, and planning. Now is Chavez's faction responsible for that? Sure. But saying that does not imply that their opposition would be doing better. Nations like this are ruled by incompetence on both sides.

After all, had the right wing actually been better than Chavez, then Chavez never would have been so successful at gaining and holding power. Both sides suck for many of the same reasons, as well as some different reasons. And there's nothing that I have seen that there is anyone there that actually has the intent to make things better.
 
I wouldn't put Chávez's plans for nuclear power out of the picture now that Mduro is using Cuban technicians to restore and launch missiles.
What potential is there for American intervention if that continues?

Is there any sort of moderate opposition in Venezuela? If so, how large/ powerful is it?

I must admit, I know next-to-nothing about the situation in Latin America currently, but this thread is very interesting.
 
The US isn't going to intervene. Maybe if there was a long time cuttoff of the oil flow. But maybe not even then. And no one on Venezuela would really benefit from cutting off the oil. They need to money to pursue their agendas.
 
Is there any sort of moderate opposition in Venezuela? If so, how large/ powerful is it?

The right is non-existent. They all now live in Florida, or Alberta. Chavez so to that.

The left and center still exist however and the opposition is really quite strong now that they are united under one party. The country really is quite bi-polar politically right now, between the center-left and Chavismo.

Though from what I am hearing, former Chavistas in the thousands are defecting to the opposition in light of Maduro revealing himself as a dictator that's destroying the 'great work done by Chavez'. Or because of the fact that they have no money to buy food, and may have lost their job for various reasons over the past few months.
 
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