Independence for Kosovo...

[Little Raven]

Would you support this same sort of referendum for other parts of the world?

I don't think that just because it's agreed that independence is the best thing for Kosovo that independence is always the best answer everywhere.

We're talking about an area where the overwhelming majority (90+%) has no ethnic connection to the national government, and which was the victim of an ethnic cleansing attempt by that same government in the last 20 years.

Kashmir != Kosovo != Turkish Cypriot != Quebec. Each case has to be evaluated on the individual merits.

 

[Gelion]

Last time I checked the russian people are still minorities in the baltic countries.

True, but they make up a significant portion of the population. Some of the areas could separate and join Russia as they fit ethnically.

 

[Verbose]

Sure, Kosovo is albanian!
Also give me a few guns and some time and I will make any part of the world Russian. Serbs have been pushed out of the region, thats why they make up 10% of the population. Giving Kosovo independance is the same thing as stating that all the Baltic countries should belong to Russia due to their ethnic makeup. IIRC its what EU opposes. Why is Kosovo different?

If Hitler had done a more competent job, Russia would be German, but that hardly justifies it.

And the point is that the principle is to deal with identity and nationhood peacably, and "as is" at this moment in time.

It rules out accepting future changes through any means other than peaceful and gradual ones, and it ignores old scores as by-gones, whether some of those involved want to accept it or not. The point is also to make for as much local power of self-determination as possible, which is why it actually doesn't allow forcible empire-building. (In the EU it's the "subsidiary principle".)

The point is to break viscious historical cycles. That said, if Kosovo goes independant, we might get an isolationist Serbia at loggerheads with the EU, and determined to go to war in the future.

Otoh such a Serbia will probably be too weak to be a serious threat. While at the same time the hope is that the EU costume will eventually be able to cover and overcome these differences. In the long run, it will be kind of daft to go around picking at the scabs of local history when everyone is a EU citizen.

What's the alternative? If it's not direct Serbian repression, which the EU finds unacceptable (and everyone else), it's Kosovar self-rule, and de facto independance, except everyone will take care not to mention the dirty word, as not to hurt Serbian feelings? Things can probabaly be put in cold storage for a while like that, hoping things will resolve themselves eventually. (They often do.)

Btw, there is nowhere near a 90% Russian majority in any of the Baltic states. Parity, in one case, at best.

 

[Verbose]

I am beyond caring.
Let Kosovo be officially independent, it makes no difference. It is already basically a NATO protectorate.

I shows you've stopped paying attention.

Kosovo is an official UN protectorate, run by the UNMIK. The first of its kind ever. And UNMIK has done a fairly lousy job too.

 

[Gelion]

If Hitler had done a more competent job, Russia would be German, but that hardly justifies it.

My point exacftly. Before the trouble Serbs were a lot more than 10% of the population in Kosovo.

And the point is that the principle is to deal with identity and nationhood peacably, and "as is" at this moment in time.

It rules out accepting future changes through any means other than peaceful and gradual ones, and it ignores old scores as by-gones, whether some of those involved want to accept it or not. The point is also to make for as much local power of self-determination as possible, which is why it actually doesn't allow forcible empire-building. (In the EU it's the "subsidiary principle".)

The point is to break viscious historical cycles. That said, if Kosovo goes independant, we might get an isolationist Serbia at loggerheads with the EU, and determined to go to war in the future.

Otoh such a Serbia will probably be too weak to be a serious threat. While at the same time the hope is that the EU costume will eventually be able to cover and overcome these differences. In the long run, it will be kind of daft to go around picking at the scabs of local history when everyone is a EU citizen.

What's the alternative? If it's not direct Serbian repression, which the EU finds unacceptable (and everyone else), it's Kosovar self-rule, and de facto independance, except everyone will take care not to mention the dirty word, as not to hurt Serbian feelings? Things can probabaly be put in cold storage for a while like that, hoping things will resolve themselves eventually. (They often do.)

I say leave things status quo as if things were changed there will be a lot of consequences world wide.

Btw, there is nowhere near a 90% Russian majority in any of the Baltic states. Parity, in one case, at best.

I am sure you already read my second post

 

[Pannonius]

Giving Kosovo independence is appeasing bandits and terrorists! This is the same logic Hitler used: "If my ethnic group constitutes a majority in some region or province of another country, I can take it."
The latest proposal from the serbian government is broad authonomy for Kosovo (essentialy it would be independence without saying that word). I think that's more than generous.
BTW. The Albanians only claim Kosovo because they become a majority in 20th century, often using violent means to achieve that goal (links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg_(1st_Albanian) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_persecution_of_Serbs). Even the word Kosovo is slavonic, it literally means "black bird's field".

 

[warpus]

I don't think that just because it's agreed that independence is the best thing for Kosovo that independence is always the best answer everywhere.

We're talking about an area where the overwhelming majority (90+%) has no ethnic connection to the national government, and which was the victim of an ethnic cleansing attempt by that same government in the last 20 years.

Kashmir != Kosovo != Turkish Cypriot != Quebec. Each case has to be evaluated on the individual merits.

The ethnic cleansing in Kosovo didn't just go one way.. Serbians were chased out, too.

 

[Italian Celtic]

Let Italy first govern Italy well (and this comes from the mouth of a belgian )

ok ok
Actual Belgian politics show how much belgian are evoluted compared to us

Sure, Kosovo is albanian!
Also give me a few guns and some time and I will make any part of the world Russian.

Yes yes
and where is america?
if russia wanted create a new empire Moscow'd have the same fate of Belgrad (but under nukes)

 

[Verbose]

Giving Kosovo independence is appeasing bandits and terrorists! This is the same logic Hitler used: "If my ethnic group constitutes a majority in some region or province of another country, I can take it."
The latest proposal from the serbian government is broad authonomy for Kosovo (essentialy it would be independence without saying that word). I think that's more than generous.
BTW. The Albanians only claim Kosovo because they become a majority in 20th century, often using violent means to achieve that goal (links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg_(1st_Albanian) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_persecution_of_Serbs). Even the word Kosovo is slavonic, it literally means "black bird's field".

Except Kosovo isn't being attached to Albania to create some form of Great Albania, so the Hitler parallell kind of falls on its face.

 

[philippe]

ok ok
Actual Belgian politics show how much belgian are evoluted compared to us

wait a sec, Belgian politicians are ovulating?

 

[Italian Celtic]

wait a sec, Belgian politicians are ovulating?

scuse me i confuse italian word evoluted with english evolved

but the sense is the same

 

[Pannonius]

Except Kosovo isn't being attached to Albania to create some form of Great Albania, so the Hitler parallell kind of falls on its face.

You honestly believe that? Independence of Kosovo is only a first step, and it's not a big secret. Look what's happening in FYROM (Macedonia).

 

[Little Raven]

The ethnic cleansing in Kosovo didn't just go one way.. Serbians were chased out, too.

I grant that. But I'm not sure how that bolsters the case that the two peoples should remain united under a Serbian flag. If anything, it would seem to suggest the opposite.

 

[innonimatu]

give what the majority wants. Who has the right to block what the majority wants?

Ah, but what majority? Where would you hold your referendum? The whole of Serbia? Only Kosovo? Each subdivision of Kosovo? Each township?

Where would such a logic end?

 

[Little Raven]

Where would such a logic end?

We're talking about international relations. Logic is strictly a bit player, when it's involved at all.

Seriously, though, the United States, France, Britain, and Germany are all willing to weigh in on the side of an independent Kosovo. Which suggests there's a certain amount of practicality to the plan.

 

[Zenon_pt]

The coming months will be decisive for Kosovo (and to others)! It could be the next barrel of gunpowder to burst, or not!
There is a lot at stake!
1st the Independence of Kosovo. Serbia lose more territory again!
2nd Russia. To give independence to them it'll open to a new boom of new states! Most of them in Russia! (the real reason of the opposition of Russia to Kosovo)
3rd. Cyprus! North of Cyprus will want (and also Turkey) the recognition of nation!
4th. UE! It can generate a war between Serbia and Kosovo! And EU will be in Check-mate! It may not support nor one nor the other! And for Kosovo is a delicate situation therefore they need the financial support of the EU to the independence!
5th. USA! Yes!!! USA win one more ally, and probably another site for them curtain of missiles for defense!

 

[Italian Celtic]

Kosovo can get the independence only if it let serbian poeple live and pass freel for his territory.
So Serbia will have the way free for marittime business and Kosovo the independece

At this point both countries can enter in EU and become european brothers

 

[warpus]

I grant that. But I'm not sure how that bolsters the case that the two peoples should remain united under a Serbian flag. If anything, it would seem to suggest the opposite.

To give it all to the Albanians seems a bit too extreme.

 

[Zenon_pt]

So Serbia will have the way free for marittime business and Kosovo the independece

You are ! That is Montenegro! Serbia doesn't have cities to marittime business! (Great to see you BTW, did you see the R Rio in youtube?)

 

[Godwynn]

Clinton Boulevard

Pristina, Kosovo