India OR China

Originally posted by Thunderfall
Indians need to settle their disputes with the Parkistanis first. You can't do much if the country is in constant fear of nuclear war. Investors don't like risks. :p

It's strange that Indians and Parkistanis Americans get along pretty well in the United States, and back in their mother countries they are killing each other...all because of religious differences.

Allways a curious thing to me as well!!

I think it is because of the fundamentalists on both sides of the border.

I believe a lot of restrictions have been removed by the US govt on India and Pakistan. Also we do not necessarily need large factories and plants, but FII's are equally helpful as Indian companies are slowly managing to become globally competitive.

Pakistan in the other hand is mush worse off because of blatant mismanagement and corruption.

Overall, I feel it has a lot to do with leaders and the decisions they take. What Deng Xiaping did in 1980, Dr.Manmohan Singh (it rhymes!!!:D ), the then FM, did it for India. It has been a game of catch up, but the leadership needs to sustain liberalisation and the policy of disinvetment.
 
T-Fall hit the nail on the head: It is all about risk. Risk of a war and risk of government corruption. I won't try to argue which country has more corruption, but I would think that Chinese corruption could be more controlled from the business perspective by the centralized government. A business knows that in China the ultimate factor is a pro business central government. In India, regional influences and bias can play a part. While this is true in many places including the US, it is all about uncertainty. In the US there is a much smaller fear of local corruption, therefore local biases and influence aren't as much of a concern.

The key thing to remember if you choose to rebut any of these thoughts is what my Marketing Proffessor once said: "Perception is Reality" Maybe corruption isn't that big of a problem, and uncertainty is small in India, but that isn't the perception.

On top of all that you come back to the whole war thing. I would say that India is more likely to get in a war than China is. I could be wrong, but once again, it is all about perception.
 
Just found this article about India on TIME:

The Fire This Time
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020408-221195,00.html

Excerpt:

The truly frightening thing is that it's not just fanatics taking part in the anti-Muslim pogrom. Murder has gone middle class: businessmen are killing businessmen, farmers are fighting farmers, mothers are urging mobs to attack neighbors' children. Across the country, in the cities and out in the villages, Hindu "self-defense" groups are ransacking Muslims' shops and burning their homes. Vigilante patrols from each side keep watch over their respective communities. Among Hindus, talk of finishing the job left undone from the genocide of partition, in which up to a million people died in the bloody split of the subcontinent, is open and common. In the past month, more than 100,000 Muslims have fled their homes; business losses are estimated at $600 million.
Sounds really scary... :eek:
 
I'm basically talking half out-of-my-a$$ here 'cause I don't really know the facts, but this is my opinion based on my understanding of communist governments (like in China) and the system (or lack thereof) in India:

Why is China far ahead of India in trade and all? Because there is somebody in China controlling and keeping an eye on companies and production: the government. Is there corruption in China? Of course, there is corruption everywhere there is money to be made. But corruption is MUCH higher in India because the government doesn't monitor companies and individuals as closely.

It acutally makes me wonder how the Indian government even collects much in taxes when a lot of trade is done in cash and probably isn't reported to the government.

Another issue that you guys already mentioned is that the Chinese government treats their workers like dirt...but I'm thinking that it doesn't stop with just the sweatshop workers making shoes in some factory at less than a penny per month or something like that. If you've ever noticed if you're in the States, there are a lot of highly trained and educated Indian people moving to the States from India each year: doctors, computer nerds, engineers and the such. They are educated in India for most their lives, then move to the US (or England, Canada, etc...) for higher education or for a job later in life. You don't see as many Chinese people like that around...I think China keeps a tighter leash on highly educated and trained people...so China probably has a higher-skilled workforce than India.
 
Good point Nishdog on how China probably holds on too its best workers.

Hindu fundametalists seem even scarier than their Muslim counterparts. Also because the fundamentalists party in India are powerful and IIRC the prime minister is from that one. Atleast in Pakistan they got a non religious government(non-theocracy) around.

In some places, police allow rioters to continue un-molested. One special target of Hindu fury: those who resist the hate. Last week, a mob stripped and then beat a Hindu woman to death for protecting her Muslim friend; another mob fatally stabbed a Muslim man for having married a Hindu. "These people always take our women as one of their wives to beget Muslim children," says one activist for the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), the extreme Hindu movement linked with India's ruling Bharatiya Janata Party.

That is really scary.
 
Nishdog,

I've to say that both of your points are conjectures only.

Originally posted by Nishdog
Why is China far ahead of India in trade and all? Because there is somebody in China controlling and keeping an eye on companies and production: the government. Is there corruption in China? Of course, there is corruption everywhere there is money to be made. But corruption is MUCH higher in India because the government doesn't monitor companies and individuals as closely.

Since the reform beginning in 1978, China government has gradually lost the tight control over the national economy, which china government enjoyed for over three decades. The private firms and foreign firm are booming, and now state-controlled sectors account for less than 1/3 of the Chinese economy. So the claim that China has tight control over firms and workers are unfounded. Also, the level of corruption has nothing to do with whether the government monitor the companies and individuals or not. It depends on the justice system and law enforcement.

Actually China government is very inefficient in collecting taxes. The tax revenue of China is less than 10% of the GDP, compared to the 17.5% of US.

Another issue that you guys already mentioned is that the Chinese government treats their workers like dirt...but I'm thinking that it doesn't stop with just the sweatshop workers making shoes in some factory at less than a penny per month or something like that. If you've ever noticed if you're in the States, there are a lot of highly trained and educated Indian people moving to the States from India each year: doctors, computer nerds, engineers and the such. They are educated in India for most their lives, then move to the US (or England, Canada, etc...) for higher education or for a job later in life. You don't see as many Chinese people like that around...I think China keeps a tighter leash on highly educated and trained people...so China probably has a higher-skilled workforce than India.

First, there're many Chinese pursuing high education in US universities. I don't have the exact number, but I believe there're more Chinese students in US universities than any other single country. You may see more Indian because large scale of Chinese students began to come the States only in late 1980s, while Indians began much earlier. But this is not the issue here.

Second, as to the sweatshop issue, I've a totally different view. The workers, even though they're making less than $1 per hour, are still much better off than if they don't have that job. If they don't have any job, their lives are much more miserable. So we should think of the work enviornment issue in combination with the per capital income. Chinese workers have a much better working enviornment than US workers in early last century, when US have a similar per capita income level. And just for the record, it's not that I have no sympacy with those poor workers, but people have to make a living first.

So come back to the topic of this thread. IMO, first, the communist authotorian government helped a lot in the beginning of the economic development. China government squeezed consumptions in 1950s, and used those revenues to build a massive heavy industry sector, which laid good ground for future development. This couldn't be possible in a demacracy. Second, China enjoys a larger population, and higher income, and thus a larger market, which attracted many foreign investments. Third, China has Hong Kond, which was the major foreign investment source for the whole 1980s and early 1990s. And foreign investment was one of the most important stimulating force for China's economic development. Forth, China much spent less in military expenses. Fifth, China still have plenty of cheap labor supplies, while India does not.

There surely are other reasons too, these reasons I can think of right now. Basicly only the first point is related with a authotorian government.

man, this is a long post. :p
 
Originally posted by God
That is really scary.
You think that is scary? A headline from when I was in school decades ago was
"80,000 police rioting in Bombay"

India is commonly dancing with anarchy.
 
Originally posted by praestare


Since the reform beginning in 1978, China government has gradually lost the tight control over the national economy, which china government enjoyed for over three decades. The private firms and foreign firm are booming, and now state-controlled sectors account for less than 1/3 of the Chinese economy. So the claim that China has tight control over firms and workers are unfounded.


Tighter control, and that is the point. It doesn't have to be absolute, but if the control is used to make business conditions more stable, it will have an influence on the flow of capital.

Actually China government is very inefficient in collecting taxes. The tax revenue of China is less than 10% of the GDP, compared to the 17.5% of US.

I can't speak to the efficiency of India's tax collection service, but lower taxes attract business. Which is the whole thrust of the question.
 
A report from the early 1990s reckoned that India would have the sixth largest economy in the world if all economic activities were subject to proper regulation and taxation, etc. The size of the Black Economy there is almost certainly the largest in the world.

The point about corruption has been made before but what separates the two most is probably the different nature of corruption. In India, which is relatively free, corruption by individuals (eg, not declaring all, or even any, of ones income to avoid taxes, regulations, etc) is probably much more common than in China, where restrictions on personal freedoms mean it is harder for individuals, except perhaps those favoured by the state for whatever reason, to be personally corrupt. Corruption in China may take the form of things like using prison labour to produce items (as was done with TV sets some years ago, I believe), which will result in greater economic power for the country as it is able to export these items at rock-bottom prices since there is no labour charge in them (even the low wages of India and other countries could never compete with this). Not that I am saying this is always the case but anyone who thinks it doesn't happen is being naive.
 
On why China has much a larger economy,higher capita per income is maybe that Communism isnt totally sucks!
Just joking....
1.China had much more an effective government
2.It is much more stable than India,China had no racial clashes
3.China is surrounded by rich nations
4.Some of the Chinese cities like Shanghai,Shenzhen,HongKong are world class, the highways are better than NewYork and London,thus improving the image of the country
5.Chinese people have a self-seffucient ideology and are considered to be the smartest people on Earth alongside the Jews.Evidence? Chinese overseas in Malaysia owns 90% of the economy ,50 % in Thailand,70-80% Indonesia,60% in Phillipine.
70 % of Chinese living in Britain are top enterprenuer,professional
6.China had a huge infrastructure
7.Sadly Indian Govt spend little money on Education,China spends about 2-3 % of its GDP on education.Skilled workers are vital for a nation growth

Relax India will make it through,it will be the 2nd superpower in the future.In most period of Medieval history China has the largest economy,in some period India was the 2nd largest even bigger than the whole of west
 
Originally posted by Han Wu Di
On why China has much a larger economy,higher capita per income is maybe that Communism isnt totally sucks!
Just joking....
1.China had much more an effective government

you must be kidding me. No matter how bad India government is, it is still a democratic one, which is by nature much more efficient than the communist government.

2.It is much more stable than India,China had no racial clashes
Then what's the Tibet problem, East Turkstan movement, and Inner Mogolia Independent movment?

3.China is surrounded by rich nations
yeah, North Korea is rich, Mongolia is rich, Laos, India, Pakistan are all rich.

4.Some of the Chinese cities like Shanghai,Shenzhen,HongKong are world class, the highways are better than NewYork and London,thus improving the image of the country
I don't see what this point is. Do you mean China's growth was only highways, and was all imaginary?

5.Chinese people have a self-seffucient ideology and are considered to be the smartest people on Earth alongside the Jews.Evidence? Chinese overseas in Malaysia owns 90% of the economy ,50 % in Thailand,70-80% Indonesia,60% in Phillipine.
70 % of Chinese living in Britain are top enterprenuer,professional
this is such a racist view.

6.China had a huge infrastructure
what infrastructure?

7.Sadly Indian Govt spend little money on Education,China spends about 2-3 % of its GDP on education.Skilled workers are vital for a nation growth
no comment.

Relax India will make it through,it will be the 2nd superpower in the future.In most period of Medieval history China has the largest economy,in some period India was the 2nd largest even bigger than the whole of west
India was even not a nation at that time.
 
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