The people building the dams on land where the Indians happen to live?
All dams are being built outside of the reservations. No indians live there.
They want money for bogus reasons.
Indians make 100 hostages in Brazil
- Thread starter luiz
- Start date
All dams are being built outside of the reservations. No indians live there.
They want money for bogus reasons.
Mato Grosso is hardly all rain forest. Much of it is covered by the cerrado, which is a rather sparse and dry vegetation. That's where most of the agricultural expansion is happening; IIRC they're already the top soybean producers in Brazil.
And the crux of the matter is the 300 hostages. In this country we have Laws, we have Courts. If you have a problem with a construction take it to Court. Hundreds if not thousands of construction sites were shut down this way. Nothing entitles anyone to take hundreds of people as hostages; this is a brutal crime that should be severely punished.
What would happen if some group, for whatever reason, took 300 hostages in the US, or Japan, or Britain? They would all end up dead or jailed. All of them.
In Brazil they'll walk free and receive more millions of dollars.
Same thing that happens when they kill, rob and rape.
Communisto
Condottiere
Too be fair though, damming a river affects the entire river and especially the ecosystem. Doesn't matter at what point the river is dammed.
Sure, which is why before building one there is a complex environmental impact analysis performed. In Brazil those sorts of analysis are among the most strict in the world; typically a hidroelectric dam will cost twice the original budgeted amount just because of modication in the project to meet environmental standards. There are literally dozens of dams waiting approval by the environmental agency to be built; it takes many years to get that approval. Not to mention that their complaints are all obviously BS; hidroelectric dams do not compromise water quality and there are systems in place to keep the flow of fish. In most major dams the amount of fishing activity increased.
But those indians, without any study or concrete data to back them up, kidnap hundreds of workers and demand a multi-millionaire compensation. That's not how things work in a lawful country. They are criminals and should be treated as such.
Communisto
Condottiere
Interesting. The common perception I hear usually is that Brazil has a poor environmental record. Though I myself don't know enough about it to comment on it.
You're absolutely right, the criminal act can't be ignored and they should end up in prison.
I'm curious about your treatment of native populations compared to the US and Canada. My assumption would be to think you didn't do much better during your history.
Vulki
Chieftain
Say, how come there is so much care for those indians? I was under the impression they were rather neglected for a long time... Are there brazilian groups advocating this oversensitive treatment (like leftists or greens or whatever), or is this just to appeal to the western media?
Btw... That indians once made up 100 % of the population is of course completely irrelevant. This reasoning only works if you do, like some leftist apparently, care for distinct "cultures" or "peoples" or whatever you perceive instead of the actual human beings. Somehow, they believe that every culture and people had the same rights for matters of space or importance.(I, as a european, might of course soon wish it were so
)
Of course, still, one could argue that the ancestors of the indians today did most certainly not make up 100 % of the people or the area, since most of them either interbred or died whithout descendants...
Edit:
Ninja'd in my first post
Btw... That indians once made up 100 % of the population is of course completely irrelevant. This reasoning only works if you do, like some leftist apparently, care for distinct "cultures" or "peoples" or whatever you perceive instead of the actual human beings. Somehow, they believe that every culture and people had the same rights for matters of space or importance.(I, as a european, might of course soon wish it were so
)Of course, still, one could argue that the ancestors of the indians today did most certainly not make up 100 % of the people or the area, since most of them either interbred or died whithout descendants...
Edit:
Ninja'd in my first post
We do, but not in major projects such as those.
We actually have extremely strict environmental laws (way too strict if you ask me), so a major government-funded project such as those dams will always meet strict standards and will cost a fortune to taxpayers (not to mention it will take several years to get done).
The deforestation is being done by smaller actors, in remote regions where it's very hard to get surveilance done. Dams, highways and etc are not what is destroying the rainforest, farming is doing that most of the time. And it's not big-scale commercial farming either, but primitive farming that consumes huge amounts of land to produce very little meat, and escapes the government radar.
Oh, and there is plenty of deforestation going on in indian reservations as well.
It was... different. There was conflict with some indian tribes, and some did get completely wiped out (though those were extremely warlike tribes and it's hard to imagine any different outcome in 16th Century). Also in the very early stages of colonization, indians were enslaved. This ended though with the introduction in huge scale of African slaves, and the Church eventually banned the enslavement of indians (though it curiously did not object to enslavement of Africans...). The most notorious crime against indians in Brazil happened under Portuguese rule, and it was not aimed at the indians, but rather at the Jesuits that kind of ruled them in the Missões. Portugal wanted to get rid of the Jesuits, and the Guarani indians defened the Jesuits, so they were viciously destroyed. Again, this happened centuries ago and only in the extreme south.
What makes the Brazilian case different from the American and Canadian ones is that here the indians did not disappear through physical anihilation, but rather through assimilation. In the firt 100 years of Portuguese rule, very very few white women came to Brazil. So the europeans took indian wifes, frequently more than one (there were more women than men in the indian tribes because the men often died young in battle between the tribes). Even after 1600, when colonization took of and european women also started to settle in Brazil, many men would still marry (or at least impregnate) indian women. Over the centuries, and because the europeans came in the millions, "pure-blooded" indians effectively disappeared. Even those trouble makers in the reservations are probably of mixed origin (though there does exist a handful of isolated tribes).
In the Northern Region of Brazil, where most indians lived, the majority of the population is of mixed white-indian heritage. Just like in the Northeastern Region, where most of the slave farms were, most of the population is of mixed white-black origin. In the South, where the indians were wiped out and there was virtually no slavery, most people is white, and the Southeast is all mixed up.
To sum up my point: while it may seem just looking at the raw data that the Brazilian indians were massacred, in truth they still exist in the millions. It's just that their descendants also carry the genes of Portugal (and sometimes Italy, Germany, Africa and etc).
bestrfcplayer
Steppin' up!
This.
I guess the natives are mad that there trees, and fishes are being taken away from them. Curse those Liberals!!!!!!! Curses!
More update: the indians have agreed to exchange the 300 workers for 3 senior managers of the corportaion building the dam. The managers agreed and the exchange should take place soon.
The indians are now claiming that the dam was built on top of an old indian cemitery, and (shock! surprise!) they want financial compensation for that. Apparently, if they are given an extra 6 million dollars the souls of their forefathers will rest in peace under the water, but without the extra money (bear in mind they already won 3.5 M), those poor souls are doomed.
So what will happen? They'll end up getting all that money, straight from the taxpayer.
I always say that if I became President my first act would be to privatize the oil company Petrobras. Now I see that would be a mistake. My first act would be to abolish all indian reservations, shut down FUNAI and all other such "indian agencies", and have all indians that commited crimes prosecuted to the full extent of the law, just like regular citizens.
http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/20...-de-hidreletrica-em-mato-grosso-917236855.asp
The indians are now claiming that the dam was built on top of an old indian cemitery, and (shock! surprise!) they want financial compensation for that. Apparently, if they are given an extra 6 million dollars the souls of their forefathers will rest in peace under the water, but without the extra money (bear in mind they already won 3.5 M), those poor souls are doomed.
So what will happen? They'll end up getting all that money, straight from the taxpayer.
I always say that if I became President my first act would be to privatize the oil company Petrobras. Now I see that would be a mistake. My first act would be to abolish all indian reservations, shut down FUNAI and all other such "indian agencies", and have all indians that commited crimes prosecuted to the full extent of the law, just like regular citizens.
http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/20...-de-hidreletrica-em-mato-grosso-917236855.asp
Agarwaen
King
Even if their goal my be legitimate, the end do not justify the means. I can't agree with keeping hostages to negotiate your political agenda. It makes them look like terrorists or something like that.
Godwynn
March to the Sea
- Joined
- May 17, 2003
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I still say the American Model is the best option when dealing with natives.
Oerdin
Deity
Treat them like any other criminals, send in commandos to shot any hostiles and save the hostages, then after a nice fair trial hang the remaining violent criminals.
sophie
Break My Heart
I declare this to be the thread winner
Seriously though, I don't feel I know enough about the situations of both parties to form an informed opinion on the matter.
I agree with the majority of what luiz is saying.
but the thread title should be "take" 100 hostages, not "make" 100 hostages. Upon reading it, I assumed that someone had kidnapped 100 Indians. Confusing.
but the thread title should be "take" 100 hostages, not "make" 100 hostages. Upon reading it, I assumed that someone had kidnapped 100 Indians. Confusing.
Ah, the cemetery thing may just be a lie, I read somewhere that Aboriginals in Australia claimed that industrial areas were holy sites, but it turned out lated that it was a scam. Because no one really knows where these "holy sites" actually are, and people sympathize with indigenous peoples because of their history.
And some million dollars probably isn't that much compared to the budget for building these power plants, so I guess it's just a cheap way to keep people calm buy buying them out.
Unfortunately, the money will probably just end up in some greedy chief's pocket, like the one mentioned in the OP, instead of actually helping the Indians much.
Godwynn for President of Brazil
