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Intrateam Succession Game

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by YossarianLives, Apr 10, 2013.

  1. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Ok, first pre-game thoughts:

    * we are weak, weak, weak :-( with 12k soldiers, we are one but last in power. What is even more worrying, rival's average power is >20k. And we have aggressive neighbor nearby ... I would like to avoid ISDG deja vu ;-) So I would continue building warrior, while growing to size 3.

    * my first instinct would be to wait to size 3 to build settler anyway - but I will try to calculate it. Anyway, we have very low yield tiles - if building settler at size 2, we could only get 6 :hammers: turn initially, and then 8 :hammers: turn with improved copper. So without chopping, building settler would take ~13 turns. Chopping would help, but takes time.

    * We have still 5 turns to get Agriculture - and 14 more for Animal husbandry. We will reach size 3 in 6 turns and likely start building settler then, which will prompt switching 3F0H1C wet sheep into 2F2H0C forrested banana. But this way we will lose 1C. What about farming sheep (should be finished in 7 turns) and using this 4F0H1C tile to build settler?

    What does the team think? I need a lot of advice, never played Emperor before and my normal (Noble) SP style is warrior rush ;-) obviously not good idea here :p
     
  2. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    I wouldn't be too worried about our power ranking at this point, it's unavoidable. According to this article, AI on Emperor start with 2 free "defensive units", as well as Hunting and Archery for free. There's no way we can compete with that this early on. The main difference imo between finishing the Warrior first or Settler first is that will determine whether we can continue exploring with the initial warrior, or keep him around to protect our first settler.

    My gut is also saying that growing to size 3 would probably be best for us, but it would be great if you could calculate it out. You're right that we won't be building Settlers / Workers at any sort of speed without chopping & whipping, so we need to be aggressive to expand fast enough to keep up with the AI's. Lots of chopping will be the order of the day, making our Fast Workers awesome units. We'll also need to be whipping constantly. I see our strategy for a long time at our capital being growing using the Oasis + Sheep, onto the Copper + riverside mine, and then 2-pop whipping; rinse-and-repeat.

    I didn't revolt into Slavery in my turnset, but since we're SPI we can do so at any time without penalty.

    We don't want to farm over the Sheep, since we will be pasturing it the moment AH arrives. That's too many worker turns better spent chopping. Unfortunately we will need to farm some of those green tiles around the oasis. Non-river farms are such poor improvement in terms of extra tile-yield added, but our capital is so food-poor that we will need them. This will not be happening for a little while still, though.

    Great analysis so far! The best part about this SG game is that we should all be boosting our individual skill levels by talking over these decisions as a team. Another tip is that you should keep our exploring warrior on defensive terrain as much as possible. We get no bonus vs. barbs on Emperor difficulty, and no free wins. I left you in a tough spot where you'll probably need to go over flat terrain for one turn, but if you survive that, stick to forests / hills whenever you can. If you get attacked, stop and heal, since we won't win any fights if we already have taken damage.
     
  3. Bowsling

    Bowsling Deity

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    I usually grow up to the happy cap while building warriors before starting a settler. Working a 3F3C oasis, 3F1C sheep, 2F2H banana and 2F4H copper and with some chops, we'll have a settler at a similar date, and a higher population as well as greater commerce.

    Do we have The Wheel yet?
     
  4. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Hello,

    Checking in late - I keep forgetting that with small kids weekends are even more busy that weekdays ;)

    I did some analysis, but not all necessary, so I will not play before tomorrow - more time for discussion :D

    I looked at the terrain, and it is very food-poor, I would say unusually so. I did some simulations, and actually Yossarian's decision to go BW first was very good - so no nee to appologize, Yossa :goodjob: Agri and AH is not worth much, it only gives +1 or +2F in our best improvable food tile. But BW opens up chopping - our only option for reasonable-speed expansion. Moreover, with this grassland copper, we just gold lucky - great, 6-yield tile with 2 food.

    I will do some more simulations and thinking, my rough plan so far:

    * finish improving copper (2turn), started by Yossarian
    * mine a hill with 1C while waiting for Agri (5 turns) and AH (14 turns or less)
    * forget about farming the sheep
    * grow to size 3 building warrior, likely switch to settler at size 3
    * chop settler
    * coordinate settler/worker movements for city #2

    I will do simulations when to build settler, but we lack good tiles, so I am afraid size 3 will be the winner

    Bowsling, we do not have a wheel - and have to do AH, I think, after Agri (finishes in 5 turns).

    Questions:

    1. Most important decision will be a new city location. The map seems very food-poor, but there are floodplains nearby - some can be easily farmed, other cottaged as soon as we get the wheel. Yossarian mentioned need to move the capitol later - so better start preparing as soon as possible. So what do you think about settling city #2 in capitol-like cottageable location on (reasonable number -< 7?- of) floodplains? I do not believe we will find anywhere on this map location with 2 food resource in the first city ring, since we got so few food in the starting position and there is not much revealed elsewhere so far.

    2. More out of curiosity, as chopping settler at size 2 likely does not make sense anyway. I have read somewhere, that AI would attack if your power score falls below half of theirs. Is that your experience on emperor? If that is the case, we are very close the limit.

    3. Emperor barbs are likely more dangerous than I am used to (Noble). But we are lucky to have copper in the BFC and I think our tech path would be Agri->AH->TheWheel. If that is the case, I think we can skip archery as axes will be available soon. Do you agree?

    4. I will keep warrior on the defensive terrain, as feasible. What turn I should expect barbarians try to enter our lands on normal speed? I understand it is complex and somehow dependent on the total city number, but experienced players probably can tell.
     
  5. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    We do not have the wheel yet, will likely to start on it in 19.

    I would normally also grow to happy cap, but tiles in BFC are pretty bad, I am not sure this time. For building settler, the slightly better tile than 2F2H banana, will be (wet? :lol:) hill that I plan to mine to turn it into 0F4H1C tile.
     
  6. tobiasn

    tobiasn Warlord

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    Plan sounds good.

    When it comes to power/military size, don't worry. We just have to worry about barbs now in the beginning, and we're still at least 15-20 turns before they will enter our borders. AI is hard coded to never declare war before turn ~50, and even after that it takes more than a small military to make them declare on you so early. As long as we get some warriors out to spawnbust we can REX in relative peace.
     
  7. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Hi tobias, thanks for the info. Can you refer me to the link how exactly fogbusting works? I am normally lazy, play on Noble and either build a Great Wall or turn barbs off :lol:
     
  8. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    One more thought: connecting a copper will take a while (The Wheel not researched yet), so we will not be able to build axemans soon. If I grow to size 5 (happy cap) now, later I will be able to build only settlers and workers - no time to squeeze an axe rather that settler/worker 2 whip. I I build first settler earlier, than I could build much more useful axemans while growing to the happy cap.

    Another question: what is the maximal 2nd city distance from the capitol? The exploring warrior is now 8 tiles from the capitol, I think he should be heading closer to look for possible city #2 locations.
     
  9. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    I hope they enjoyed the zoo!

    Thanks for doing the simulations. My gut said BW first was the right call, but when I realized how many turns it will be before we can improve any food tiles, I started second-guessing myself.

    Sounds like a great plan. We won't need the mine before we hit size 3, and I already put two worker turns into it, so it might be worthwhile to spend a little time pre-chopping forests on your way down to the hill. We should be able to shave a couple turns at least off of AH since we'll get the pre-req bonus, maybe the known tech bonus if Zulu research it or we meet other civs, and we'll get a small commerce boost while we're working the Sheep.

    Definitely we don't want to wait any longer than size 3 to start the Settler. And TW=>Pottery is almost certainly the next tech objective.

    Yeah, all those FP will make several nice strong commerce cities. For our second city, right now I'm thinking maybe 4-4-4-4 from the capital to be able to share the Sheep, or 1-1-2 from the capital. Of course this could change as we uncover more of our surrounding land. No need to commit to a new capital location anytime soon, though. That is still awhile in the future.

    As tobiasn mentioned, we don't need to worry about an AI DOW for awhile. I'll see if I can find a link to an exact explanation of the rules for this. Archery is definitely not needed with Copper in our BFC. Also, we'll probably want to avoid Hunting for as long as possible so we can continue building garrison warriors after connecting Copper.

    One thing for sure is that animals will never enter our borders, so you're safe for this first turn set at least.


    As you stated in your last post, I let the warrior wander kind of far from our capital. You probably want to keep him closer by, maybe even uncovering the land that I missed west of our capital. Or, if you find a stronger second city site in our south, then keep him in that area. You should be able to chop out (or even whip?) the settler during your turn set, so just make sure to keep the warrior nearby wherever you decide to settle the second city.

    I'll see if I can find a link to a really good explanation that Speaker provides on setting up a sentry net. It doesn't go over the hard rules for fogbusting (I think barbs cannot spawn within 2 tiles of a unit, but I could be wrong about this), but gives some really great general tips on the practice.

    You mentioned The Great Wall. I was actually thinking this might be a really good game to focus on an Espionage Economy. What does the team think? That might let us practice some things that we'll want to do in the main game. If we do decide to go this route, TGW will be huge, but we still have a turn set or two before we need to commit.
     
  10. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    Here is a good CFC link about Spawnbusting.

    What we need to know:

    Barb units cannot spawn within a 5x5 square surrounding a unit (including AI units and other barbs)

    Barb cities can only spawn in the fog, but they can spawn inside of the 5x5 square surrounding a unit

    Barbs cannot spawn in land that is defogged by our culture.
     
  11. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Hi Yossarian, thank you very much for all the great comments.

    The only problem with playing an espionage game is that is sort of pessimistic - stealing techs makes sense only if we are not a tech leader. In SP it is rather problematic, for two reasons:

    * first, we would have to gave up on being a tech leader, rather unusual move, at least at lower difficulties I play
    * second, even if we would decided not to try to be the tech leader, the problem is we probably cannot count on AI to research reasonable techs.

    I generally think the espionage strategy is much stronger in MP, where other players will likely research desirable techs and being tech leader is not that simple ;-)

    PS Kids loved the zoo, thanks :) My older kept saying "we have to get to the elephants ASAP!" Of course, elephants were exactly on the opposite side to our entrance. And once we got there, he wanted to get somewhere else asap ;-) But trip was overall very nice, for kids the definitely highlight was a small crawl-through tunnel in the aquarium - very good idea and likely not that expensive, I never saw anything like that.
     
  12. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    I'm not talking about turning off self-research completely and only stealing techs. We should definitely play a strong game and that will absolutely include grabbing the most important techs for us. In fact, an Espionage Economy can help us be the tech leaders, since we can beeline strategic techs while stealing cheaper techs from the AI as they research them.

    Even when using a Specialist Economy or Priest Economy, you still build some cottages, and when using a Cottage Economy, you still run some specialists. I just mean that we should put priority on Espionage and use it to it's fullest. I know that I normally don't do this in the SP games I play, so it would be a good learning experience for all of us. Plus, when questions come up like the latest suggestion in the Demo-Hacking thread that we sabotage RB's Taj build, our SG team will be able to chime in with all the lessons we'll be learning in this game.

    One nice Espy trick I use consistently in my SP games is instead of bombarding down any defenses, I always try to have spies pre-stationed to cause a city revolt the turn I want to attack the city, so it automatically goes down to 0% defense bonus.
     
  13. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    OK. I just meant that we can either optimize our economy for self-research or tech-stealing. I you think we need to know the exact cost of sabotaging Taj build in RB capitol, I can find it out, although I am afraid that now is probably too late to even move a spy there and definitely to late to have any discounts. Moreover, to have good chance of success, typically 2+ spies are needed. I will try to post the cost estimate in demohacking thread.

    Unfortunately, I do not have time for simulations, so I will just play my turnset an will report the results to not to delay the our game any longer.
     
  14. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Turns 20-35

    Turn 20: I am tempted and move exploring warrior to undefended position 1N of the rice uncovered by Yossarian - and bingo :D, there is a cow 2N of the rice. So far it is the only potential city location with 2 food resources in the first ring, but it is 8 tiles from the capitol, so I put it on "for later" list. I continue improving the copper Yossarian started and I am building warrior in size 1 Indira.

    Turn 21: Exploring warrior is attacked by the panther in the open, fortunately survives, but healing (n the neighboring forest) will take 4 turns :(

    Turn 22: Copper improved, I am moving Worker 1N+1NE to pre-chop the forrest.

    Turn 25: Agriculture finished, I am starting to research Animal Husbandry (11 turns).

    Turn 26: Warrior finally healed, another warrior will be finished in Indira in 2 turns. I consider if I should continue exploring far-away lands or move closer to Indira. I decide to explore further.

    Turn 27: I uncover another rice, Indira grows to size 3. I let if finish 14/15 warrior. 4H1C mine finished.

    Turn 28: Indira finished Worker #2, I am building settler now (10 turns), move Worker to chop pre-chopped forrest, warrior #2 goes west to explore sheep overlapping city, as per Yossarian suggestion. Warrior #1 explores around newly found rice. Wow - there is gold 2W of the rice! :D It is the first happy resource I see on the map. I am switching Indira from 3F1C unimproved sheep to newly built 4H1C mine.

    Turn 30: First chop goes into settler. I am a bit over-excited by the gold and continue to move North, but it is time to go home.

    Turn 31: There is elephant 3N of the rice! :D A pity it is all so far away from Indira .. Pre-chopping forrest while waiting for AH, no time to put another chop into the settler.

    Turn 33: Uncovering gems :D. Preparing to settle city #2, 2W of the sheep and overlapping it, as Yossarian suggested. Wolf appears next tile to the warrior who were supposed to escort the settler :(

    Turn 34: Great time to stop :) Settler ready in Indira, I will let my succesor to decide what to do. Since there was not very detailed discussion, I had to make some arbitrary decisions. Both (wounded) warrior and settler are positioned so that settler can safely reach tile 2W of the sheep in 2 turns and settle there. I had problems with putting signs (Macs mouse?), but the forrest 1N of Indira has 2 turns to chop, one 1NE has 1 turn to chop. Who's next? :D
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Arkipeller

    Arkipeller Ancient of Lore

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    Caledorn's turn :)
     
  16. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    I've downloaded the save and will post some screens later tonight for discussion in advance of me playing the next 10 (or was it 15?) turns. :) I'm nowhere near your abilities at analyzing and planning, Maga, so my own suggestions will be rather simple compared to the thorough job you've done - but this is very educational! :)
     
  17. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Hi Caledorn, thank you for your kind words :) I am actually not good at planning, my optimism if often leading me astray ;)
     
  18. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    Caledorn<<<Up Now!
    Bowsling<<<On Deck
    classical_hero
    tobiasn
    Arkipeller
    YossarianLives
    Maga_R<<<Just played

    Caledorn, why don't you play until T50 to get us back on even turns? It sounds like everything is humming along right on track. I'm looking forward to seeing some screenshots.
     
  19. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    One night too late due to RL stuff going on, but here's the screenshots. My initial moves will be to move the settler to the spot we want to settle 2W of the sheep, and I guess set the build to a warrior in that new city to get a defensive unit there? Or should I build a Fast Worker there?

    I haven't thought much about what other moves to do just yet, so feel free to chime in suggestions! :)

    Spoiler :







     
  20. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    Looks like we have fertile ground to the west and south, so that is the area we need to expand into.
     

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