Investigation Thread ~ The People vs Chieftess

[Cyc]

President Chieftess has been accused by Minister Black_Hole of violating Article D of the Constitution.

More specificially, she is accused of, during the Sept. 26, 2004 Turn 170 A.D. Turn Chat, of violating to legally posted orders of the Province of Zarnia's Deputy Governor RegentMan. The President, according to the accout of the Minister of Science, set the city of Zojoji to build a swordsman, rather than the stated instruction to build a colosseum. If true, this is a violation of Article D of the Constitution.

The three members of the (term 2) judiciary have found these charges to have merit.

For additional information regarding the procedure, and the original charge, please reference the Term 2 Judicial Thread. I will be trying to reconstruct the original charges here for you.

The first two posts are reserved for the accused and the Public Defender. They forfeit this right if they do not post here in a 24 hour period beginning at the posting of the thread.

All citizens are encourage to voice their opinions on this matter in this thread after either the first reserved posts are made, or after the 24 hour period has passed. Citizens are reminded to keep discussion civil.
__________________________________________________________

I am formally filing a CC against Chieftess.
Chieftess illegally went against the deputy governor of zarnia's instructions:

In Governor Zarn's absence, I am posting the queues. For reference, here is the pre-build poll, which shows Zojoji gaining support to build a wonder (as of this post).

Great Lighthouse Pre-build (If the above poll changes before the chat, change this to a colosseum (Mayor Cyc's preference))

Fanatikku
Colosseum (Will waste 29 shields)

(TC Post:

)
As you can see in the poll regarding prebuilds:

As of now, it's a 6-6 tie. Turnchat time.

(Poll:

)
The only way she could have gve against this, was if snipelfritz(who was present at the chat) broke the tie, and she did not give him the oppurtunity to do that.
She even went against RegentMan'sinstructions in Fantikku to build a colloseum, and instead built a swordsmen.

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DG5_AD310_fued.SAV
TC Log: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DG5_sep26.zip
She has broken article D of the Constituion:

Article D. The Executive branch is responsible for determining
and implementing the will of the People. It is headed
by the President who shall be the primary Designated
Player. The President shall take direction from a
council of leaders and from other elected and appointed
officials via the turnchat instruction thread. The President
shall be tasked with control of worker actions.....

From chat log:

[13:01] <+SaaMSAT> whats the prebuild poll result?
[13:02] <!Chieftess> It's tied!
[13:02] <+SaaMSAT> grr
[13:02] <!Chieftess> 6-6
[13:02] <+SaaMSAT> who gets to decide (if its you, i know how it
goes)
[13:02] <!Chieftess> And I've voting we need swords instead of a
giant spotlight
[13:02] * @RikMeleet is now Playing:4 Queen & David Bowie -
Pressure
[13:02] <!Chieftess> *yeah! Let's blind our enemies with a huge
spotlight!*
[13:03] <+Furiey> or put them under pressure with swords instead
[13:03] <@RikMeleet> I broke the tie ....
[13:03] <!Chieftess> yay!
[13:03] <@RikMeleet> CT: Tie is briken
[13:03] <@RikMeleet> ok
[13:03] <!Chieftess> ok, on with the first queue
[13:04] <+SaaMSAT> whats the vote now? (need i ask?)
[13:05] <+Furiey> poll's still open?
[13:05] <@RikMeleet> Free the slaves ! oh, I mean: Stop the
prebuilds !
[13:05] <@RikMeleet> poll is open

<+Civanator> prebuild poll is now 8-6 in favor of
stopping both prebuilds

Just incase here are the images:

I would like to thank the court for its time in this matter.
__________________

 

[Provolution]

sorry, I should not post here.

 

[Cyc]

Chieftess' first reply:

1 - I do have a vision impairment (real life now, remeber that thing called real life? Sure you do!), and the layout was vertical rather than horizontal this time, forcing me to read downwards. Thus, I couldn't see what was on the side (since I wasn't looking that way). My impairment causes me to miss vision in the corners and sides of my eyes (we went over this once back in DG1 I believe). (This is just one reason I like everything to be consistant). If you don't like reason #1, then excuse me for living.

2 - The layout was confusing, which is why I've reitterated in the current turnchat instruction thread to post them clearly, and not link to a million different pages. Watching all of those pages makes it all the more difficult.

3 - Contrary to popular belief (and what Lefty would have you believe), I'm human. Humans make mistakes.

 

[Cyc]

This thread is now open for all citizens to post in.

 

[Cyc]

I think President Chieftess has committed a crime. It is very easy; a 
Collosseum (?) was instructed to be build on Zojoji and no collosseum is 
build or being build there. Chieftess, as president, has the responsibility 
to make sure the instructions are carried out. 
OTOH the way the instructions are presented is "confusing", to say the least.
 Although it is the President's responsibility that instructions are carried 
out, it is the office holder's responsibility to post clear instructions. And 
it is the public's repsonsibility to point out failures in this. 
At the moment we are, through this CC, pointing out a failure. But who is to
 blame? 
In my opinion the President is the responsible one, even if it is not entirely
 her fault. 

This is my personal opinion.

 

[Cyc]

It is really quite a mistake :/ But other Presidents made some mistakes also.
I'm sure Chieftess is trying to do the best she can. I'm also actively watching/searching instructions during turnchat in order to assist the President, AND i must admit instructions are sometimes very confusing and unclear.
Therefore, I suggest that we continue with our support to Chieftess - who is also elected in Term 3 President elections - and forget this mistake was done. Ofcourse, CT is aware of this mistake and we should expect no more faults of this kind. We could consider this complaint as a WARNING to President AND Ministers to post instructions clearly/ and to follow it precisely.

**********

 

[Cyc]

Turn Chat Instruction Thread
Zojoji
Great Lighthouse Pre-build(If the above poll changes before the chat, change this to a colosseum (Mayor Cyc's preference))
Swordsman (If the above poll changes)
Swordsman (If the above poll changes, produce these until end of chat)

NOTE: Instructions posted approx. 2 hours before start of TCIT.

Poll Thread
Link to poll thread

Rather than post any discussions from the poll thread, I urge all citizens to read the entire thread.

Chat Log
NOTE: These are what I feel to be the relevant sections, and intended to start discussion/thoughts. Please review the log files yourself for the full infornation on the matter
Code:
[13:01] <+SaaMSAT> whats the prebuild poll result?
[13:02] <!Chieftess> It's tied!
[13:02] <+SaaMSAT> grr
[13:02] <!Chieftess> 6-6
[13:02] <+SaaMSAT> who gets to decide (if its you, i know how it
goes)
[13:02] <!Chieftess> And I've voting we need swords instead of a
giant spotlight
[13:02] * @RikMeleet is now Playing: 4 Queen & David Bowie -
Pressure
[13:02] <!Chieftess> *yeah! Let's blind our enemies with a huge
spotlight!*
[13:03] <+Furiey> or put them under pressure with swords instead
[13:03] <@RikMeleet> I broke the tie ....
[13:03] <!Chieftess> yay!
[13:03] <@RikMeleet> CT: Tie is briken
[13:03] <@RikMeleet> ok
[13:03] <!Chieftess> ok, on with the first queue
[13:04] <+SaaMSAT> whats the vote now? (need i ask?)
[13:05] <+Furiey> poll's still open?
[13:05] <@RikMeleet> Free the slaves ! oh, I mean: Stop the
prebuilds !
[13:05] <@RikMeleet> poll is open

Code:
[13:25] <!Chieftess> Zojoji
[13:25] <!Chieftess> Great Lighthouse Pre-build (If the above
poll changes before the chat, change this to a colosseum (Mayor
Cyc's preference))
[13:25] <!Chieftess> Swordsman (If the above poll changes)
[13:25] <!Chieftess> Swordsman (If the above poll changes,
produce these until end of chat)
[13:25] * @RikMeleet is leaving -> dinner.
[13:25] <!Chieftess> Swords in both now.


-- Ravensfire

**********

 

[Cyc]

I, as a citizen, would like to post my opinion here. Chieftess is claiming the reason she could change Zojoji’s production to a Colosseum was because she has a vision impairment. Chieftess states that she works on Networks. I have worked on Networks myself. All most all data from a Network is listed vertically, just like Instructions for the Turn Chat. Sure it goes from left to right, but all text does. Chieftess is also a Moderator for CFC and maybe more websites. She has between 13,000 posts and 14,000 posts in CFC alone. She is constantly reading the forums and posting in these forums. Yet she is claiming that her vision impairs her ability to be a good President. Chieftess has been a President more times than I care to count. She is very capable of reading posted Instructions. If after 3 years of implementing posted instructions, Chieftess finally feels it’s time to fess up and tells us she can’t read them, I would have a very hard time believing her. Ok, let’s turn a blind eye to this angle and pretend she can’t read vertical postings.

A President is supposed to stay up with the goings-on of the Demogame as part of their job. In a recent conversation in Term 2 – Zarnia Province thread, I believe she was doing just that. The conversation went like this:

RegentMan:
Originally Posted by Zarn:I wouldn't switch to swords, immediately, but I would quickly build an imprvement in each than alot of units.

I agree with that. My question was basically asking that if the pre-builds are canceled. And since we won't find out until Sunday, I feel that a little discussion in case they're stopped would be good.
_________________________________________
Cyc:
Well, please, let's not put a Granary in Zojoji if things go that way. A Colosseum would be a much better idea. We don't want to be restricting the city's growth or production battling unhappiness.
_________________________________________
RegentMan:
Okay, so far these are what seems to be the popular choices:

Fanatikku
Colosseum

Zojoji
Granary
Colosseum
_______________________________________
Chieftess:
Originally Posted by RegentMan:Okay, so far these are what seems to be the popular choices:FanatikkuColosseumZojojiGranaryColosseum....

*groans* NO!! They should be building swords! Zojoji has nothing but hills left right now, so their growth is almost over.
_______________________________________
RegentMan:
Originally Posted by Chieftess:*groans* NO!! They should be building swords! Zojoji has nothing but hills left right now, so their growth is almost over.

They will be going on sword production after they complete a city improvement. No sense on wasting so many shields.
______________________________________

Chieftess:
We shouldn't have wasted them in the first place...
______________________________________

That seems pretty evident to me that the President was having an on-going discussion with Deputy Governor RegentMan about how Zojoji and Fanatikku should have an improvement built in them before going on to units. Now if RegentMan is telling Chieftess in a dialouge that improvements will be built in both cities, and then tells her again in the instructions, how could she have known to build a Colosseum in Fanatikku and not one in Zojoji. The plan and simple truth is she didn't want a Colosseum in Zojoji.

I have been playing this game with Chieftess through all of our Demogames. In fact, I was here before she was. Chieftess has always had little regard for posted instructions, as seen in Demogame 2, when she repeatedly ignored Governors Instructions. DG2 was when Chieftess was found guilty of violating the same kind of Laws that pertain to this CC, resulting in the conviction of 3 PIs/CCs (PIs are what CCs used to be called). The fact is she abuses her power as President/DP. Unfortunately, until now, I was the only one who called her on it. Luckily Black_Hole had the guts to stand for what he believes in, and I am here to back him up. There is no need to be afraid of convicting Chieftess on this offense to Japanatica. It was not a mistake. She purposely neglected the well being of Zojoji, by ignoring the posted Instructions of the Deputy Governor, changing production to what she wanted and not what others had chosen.

Stand up for your rights, people.

 

[Cyc]

just in case everyone skimmed by post #4:

This thread is now open for all citizens to post in.

 

[GenMarshall]

I am going to stay out of this conflict. Technicly, I have no oppinion on this issue (Since I declare myself Neutral) since I know from my gut that this would create a schism in the Demogame with the supporters of Chieftess and the supporters of the Anti-Chieftess and would lead to numorus flame wars and battles between the two parties.
I am personaly getting tired and disapointed whenever these things happen. A simmiler situation happened back in DG3 when Donsig failed to follow Zarn's instructions in the Turnchat (Note: the rulesets were different back in DG3), the resulting aftermath was an exodis of demogamers leaving this game due to the bickering and fighting the PIs/CCs has caused.

Unless I am convince to side with one another, I still stand neutral

 

[Provolution]

I see no legal outcome here, due to the nature of the forum. The combination of President, Moderator and Defendant makes this trial highly curious from any legal caseworking view. Again, both CT and Cyc has their followings. In spite of this, it is chrystal clear it has been a breach of trust and protocol, and it is curious that the statements of CT contradicts each other. There is no logical consistency it what happened and the explanation, nor the pattern of behavior leading up to this.situation.

Above all, this is a political trial, and I think that CTs position has already given her a virtual immunity to the system, so I am just curious to how the conversations would work out,and how these will be moderated. It may actually provide me some input to the sci fi novel I am presently writing, even though it is a rather petit example

 

[Cyc]

You're not convinced, CG? Besides the conversation she had with RegentMan above in the Zarnia Province thread, RegentMan's legally posted Instructions were:

Zarnia

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Governor Zarn's absence, I am posting the queues. For reference, here is the pre-build poll, which shows Zojoji gaining support to build a wonder (as of this post).

Fanatikku
Colosseum (Will waste 29 shields)
Swordsman
Swordsman (Produce until end of chat)

Zojoji
Great Lighthouse Pre-build (If the above poll changes before the chat, change this to a colosseum (Mayor Cyc's preference))
Swordsman (If the above poll changes)
Swordsman (If the above poll changes, produce these until end of chat)

Immo
Marketplace (Due in 32 turns)
Horseman
Horseman

Furuyama
Galley (Due in three turns)
Worker
Marketplace
______________________________________________________

The words pre-build poll were a link to the poll in question. Chieftess probably used this link to get to the poll. There she noted (and stated in the chat log) that the poll had changed before the chat. Simply looking at the Instructions for Zojoji, you can see that if the poll changes before the chat, Zojoji is to be changed to a Colosseum. How can that not be evident to you. She purposely ignored the Instructions and changed Zojoji to what she wanted. If that doesn't convince you CG, I think you're ignoring the facts.

 

[Provolution]

I heard from very valid sources that she has a set of "apprentices" she has trained up in the DG, and they will never criticize her, so I would not stress that much with CGs neutrality here.

 

[GenMarshall]

You're not convinced, CG? Besides the conversation she had with RegentMan above in the Zarnia Province thread, RegentMan's legally posted Instructions were:... [sniped to conserve post space]

...The words pre-build poll were a link to the poll in question. Chieftess probably used this link to get to the poll. There she noted (and stated in the chat log) that the poll had changed before the chat. Simply looking at the Instructions for Zojoji, you can see that if the poll changes before the chat, Zojoji is to be changed to a Colosseum. How can that not be evident to you. She purposely ignored the Instructions and changed Zojoji to what she wanted. If that doesn't convince you CG, I think you're ignoring the facts.

Well, All I can say, that all that evidence has convinced me and I wish to change my stance to siding with you Cyc.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Above all, this is a political trial, and I think that CTs position has already given her a virtual immunity to the system, so I am just curious to how the conversations would work out,and how these will be moderated.

The fact that "Chieftess' position" is somewhat special is true, however this should not be a problem. She is the current president and the next president. This is only good; that means she can be removed from office; if she holds no office that wouldn't have been possible.
She is defendant -> she seems to choose to do her defense herself. I don't see how this makes her special.
She is a Forum moderator. This does make her special, but only in the way of a penalty like "ban from the forum". However I am sure that if it gets this far (which I do not believe as the crime committed was not so game-threateningly huge that such a severe penalty is justified) Eyrei and I can get Thunderfall to have Chieftess blocked from posting in the democracy part. You can't reasonbly ask someone who moderates the DG's as well as other parts (non DG related) to be banned for a certain number of days (acc to the penalty). But we can make it so that it is enforced.

 

[Cyc]

Outstanding CG. I'm impressed. But you're are actually siding with Black_Hole. He is the one who has filed this CC. It just happened to be another illegal action CT has taken against me. People need to realize this is not my CC. This was posted by someone who pays attention to the game and has the where-with-all to stand up for what he believes in.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Cyc, can you please see those times of the screenshots?

The poll of 8-7 says "4:33 pm", however CT's post at "turnchat time" was 12:01 (deadline for instructions). And Rik's post at 12:02, *after the tcit was "closed", said "7-6". That means, that when CT posted, and got the results for the poll, it was 6-6, a tie.

So...what did she do wrong?



Fyi: I do make mistakes reading and interpreting the Constitution and CoL and whatever laws we have - so maybe I misread something, in that case, if I did, sorry.

 

[Chieftess]

Just to note, mods have been president in the past (Remember DG2?). Something like this happens everytime this type of scenario unfolds... and the conspiracy theories start flying...

 

[ravensfire]

Two questions for us to answer.

1 - What was the correct, legal instruction at the time the turn chat began.

2 - Did the DP follow those instructions.

From the evidence presented thus far, the poll was tied 6-6, at the start of the turn chat. Note the screenshot w/ the post by CT commenting on the poll being tied at the start of the turn chat. No attempt appears to have been made to determine the preference of the leader or deputy leader to break the tie. CT broke the tie as President and DP. Her vote, based the poll options, was to stop the prebuilds in both cities. Looking at the public poll breakdown, the acting provincial leader preferred to continue the prebuild in Zojoji only, as demonstrated by his vote.

My answer to question 1 is that the legal instruction for the city of Zojoji was to continue building the prebuild, using the acting provincial leader's preference to break the tie.

As a side note, even should we determine that the DP, and DP alone could break the tie, and ignore the acting provincial leader's preference, they could only choose amongst the poll options, in this case, cancel both prebuilds.

The instructions for Zojoji clearly stated that if the pre-build was cancelled to change to a Colloseum, and queue up Swordsmen.

The second question is much simpler to answer. The DP did not follow the legal instructions. The pre-build is not being built anymore, nor is a colloseum built in Zojoji.

Quite honestly, any reasons or excuse for why an instruction was not followed belongs in a penalty discussion, not in a fault discussion. I believe that the DP ignored the instructions of the leader to follow her preference. The leader clearly did plan for both situations in his instructions. These were not followed.

-- Ravensfire

EDIT: Changed "two" to "to" in intro sentance

 

[Black_Hole]

Two questions for us two answer.

1 - What was the correct, legal instruction at the time the turn chat began.

2 - Did the DP follow those instructions.

From the evidence presented thus far, the poll was tied 6-6, at the start of the turn chat. Note the screenshot w/ the post by CT commenting on the poll being tied at the start of the turn chat. No attempt appears to have been made to determine the preference of the leader or deputy leader to break the tie. CT broke the tie as President and DP. Her vote, based the poll options, was to stop the prebuilds in both cities. Looking at the public poll breakdown, the acting provincial leader preferred to continue the prebuild in Zojoji only, as demonstrated by his vote.

My answer to question 1 is that the legal instruction for the city of Zojoji was to continue building the prebuild, using the acting provincial leader's preference to break the tie.

As a side note, even should we determine that the DP, and DP alone could break the tie, and ignore the acting provincial leader's preference, they could only choose amongst the poll options, in this case, cancel both prebuilds.

The instructions for Zojoji clearly stated that if the pre-build was cancelled to change to a Colloseum, and queue up Swordsmen.

The second question is much simpler to answer. The DP did not follow the legal instructions. The pre-build is not being built anymore, nor is a colloseum built in Zojoji.

Quite honestly, any reasons or excuse for why an instruction was not followed belongs in a penalty discussion, not in a fault discussion. I believe that the DP ignored the instructions of the leader to follow her preference. The leader clearly did plan for both situations in his instructions. These were not followed.

-- Ravensfire

thank you ravensfire for a great summary