IOT Developmental Thread

[Tyo]

I nominate Vicky2 cause that's the one I used.

 

[Ailedhoo]

Although I would usually plan to play as a "Police States of America" for a USA focused game just for the fun of setting of tear gas and going "PSA! PSA! PSA!", I have desire to play as a force of justice. Hence influenced by a program I listened to last night on BBC Radio 4 I would have plans to play a power that be a movement.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Oh gawd no not the Anons......CANT THEY DO THEIR RESEARCH!

 

[Sonereal]

We all know that a nation based on the contradictory message of an internet quasi-movement will work.

 

[Tani Coyote]

Why not dissolve state borders entirely? Or at least get rid of all the ugly straight lines...

Then just give each state a number of provinces proportional to its population.

 

[Double A]

I like the NC-Tn/Va-Ky border, though. Can we keep that one?

 

[Ailedhoo]

We all know that a nation based on the contradictory message of an internet quasi-movement will work.

Anonymous has a political influence. I wish to try a anarchy power and frankly a hacker power would prove a good way to demonstrate such a willing. The hackivist movement will work as a power. I am being serious.

Anyrate if the Pirate Party can win seats in the EU then Anonymous can be a power. I refuse to use state as I am thinking of making the power a collective of socities, with the choatic vigilianty V for Vendetta fans and all.

 

[Mosher]

Anonymous has a political influence. I wish to try a anarchy power and frankly a hacker power would prove a good way to demonstrate such a willing. The hackivist movement will work as a power. I am being serious.

Anyrate if the Pirate Party can win seats in the EU then Anonymous can be a power. I refuse to use state as I am thinking of making the power a collective of socities, with the choatic vigilianty V for Vendetta fans and all.

cancer

 

[CELTICEMPIRE]

@ everyone, I'm not very good at making borders, and the states themselves are seceding from the union, so it would make sense in my opinion that the state borders would still exist.

 

[Tani Coyote]

For when IOT X finally implodes.

Spoiler :

Will ponder the actual ruleset, but I'm thinking taking all four parts of the Death Egg = victory.

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

One step over 64.

 

[Sonereal]

The Economy and You!
A Look at IOT Economics

Good day, Billy! You seem to be a new something. Whether you're new to the board, new to IOT, or new to GMing an IOT, you walk in with a minimum expectation that the game runs on something. Even in the so-called "classic" IOTs, there was an economy. A roleplayed economy, but an economy nonetheless!

IOT Economics is the latest fad here in IOT. The drive to more simulationist economies since 2010 has resulted in a wellspring of new ideas on how a game economy should look and run. The economic ruleset of a game is the backbone of any IOT ruleset, for which everything else is pegged to and dependent on. So, without further adieu, let's crack open the book and look at some of the basic economic outlines that have sprung up.

Classical Approach

Spoiler :

The Classic IOT doesn't have an economy. Economy is roleplayed. By extension, so is everything else. You can't pay to build armies, or assign worth to individual hard armies, without an economy. Therefore, the Classical Approach is the easiest approach. On the farther end of this scale includes IOTs where players have a set amount of expansion and "leadership" points that don't increase, even through expansion.

The benefits to this approach is if you have quality roleplay, you could have a decent economic game. However, the drawbacks come in with bickering over the strength of an economy. For instance, an early IOT had the idea of a superpower Byzantine Empire that was supposedly self-sufficient. Another drawback is that the fun of this side only shines if other players partake in complex trade agreements on their own.

RIOT Approach

Spoiler :

I only call this the RIOT approach since, even though it may have been used before Revolution IOT, I, Nedim, and others just call it the RIOT approach. Each province produces 1 Economic Point or the equivalent. There are variations, with different territories being worth different amounts of points, of there being the potential for trade agreements, etc.

However, for the most part, the most important factor in the economy is provinces. The system is an improvement, because you can start to add more complex mechanics such as infrastructure and units (from armies, navies, air wings down to individual units like infantry, tanks, bombers).

Without an infrastructure system (such as 2 EP produces 1 Infra which produces 1 EP), larger powers will eventually just gobble up smaller powers. Weapons of mass destruction can be added into the mix to provide a balance of power by making the effects of a WMD include turning a province(s) it hits to unusable, unclaimable wastelands.

Overall, the system is decent enough. Abstraction may be higher than what some people want, but the system is easy to manipulate and change to suit the needs of a ruleset.

Iron and Blood

Spoiler :

Iron and Blood deserves a special mention. An IB economic ruleset relies on a small number of provinces, each hosting factories. The economy is not reliant on provinces, but instead on the factories instead, which can be built.

The advantage is that provinces have different worth, increasing the amount of strategic possibility. The issue is that the system does not like maps with normal-sized provinces.

Population and Industrial Economics

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

The next system is an Excel-heavy one. The reason for this is because instead of being mainly reliant on provinces, even for factories, the system is reliant on population and industry at the basic heart. Industry is a modifier usually multiplied against population to determine economic output. Some games have added taxes, trade revenue, and other modifiers, but the basic idea is there.

What this does not include is the "latest generation" system, which also uses population and industry, but in different ways.

The benefits of this system are many. You can actually do a lot through Excel, and things like modifiers, population growth, economic investment, and trade are all codified like never before.

Due to the growing interlocking nature of mechanics, the economy leaped in complexity. Armies didn't just cost money and possibly maintenance, but also required population. However, using population for armies costs even more money since those pops aren't counted towards economic output.

Meanwhile, the economic wellbeing of your fellow players played a bigger role than just their ability to field armies. If your neighbor's economy tanked, your trade revenue is affected.

However, the system proves more difficult to balance. For instance, Black Hole's invasion of Africa in Fiat Lux, the ability to become an industrial superpower easily by sneak attacking a large economy country, etc.

Another problem is abstraction leading to a disconnect between players and their perception of the economy. Number-crunching is often very effective, resulting in exploits and min-maxing strategies. While strategies existed before, the loopholes that rise up more often that not in these games make these strategies more effective than ever.

Multipolarity 3

Spoiler :

MP3 is a rather new departure in the previous system, adding in resources. Resources aren't new to IOT, having been done before in the Super Beta and before that in World of Trade. MP3 uses the previous system, only with the addition of resources and a new, important source of income. Industry represents factories, and with 1 IP, you can produce 5 Consumer Goods, which are sold for $10 each. Your tax rate determines how much of that you get and how much is sent to the domestic bank, which can be borrowed against.

While it is too early to tell how this system pans out in the long run of the game, what is obvious is the importance of the two new resources, energy and raw materials, in maintaining armies, population growth, and powering factories.

Important Commonalities

Spoiler :

Ignoring the Classical Approach, the above systems have many things in common. The main unit of exchange, whether Industrial Points, Money, or Economic Points, is static in worth from purely a cost standpoint. For instance, if an army costs 5 EP, it costs 5 EP. Whether or not your country has 2 EP, 10 EP, or a 100 EP. The relative cost to you may change, but the hard cost of the army remains the same. People may pay less for an army that costs 5 EP from another player, but they won't pay more.

Money spent leaves the game. When 2 EP is spent to increase EP by 1, 1 EP is leaving the game. When an army that costs 5 EP is destroyed, 5 EP is leaving the game. When EP is put into technology, it usually isn't liquid, effectively "removing" it from play.

Money still accumulates however. Armies, navies, and air wings usually can be refunded, and as the economy grows, the more of those you have, as well as actual EPs.

Another important aspect is that a currency is universal. 1 EP is 1 EP, whether you're Black Hole or CRASH. While some games before have adopted limited currency use, the implementation has been limited to mainly RP and events and haven't really be tied directly into the economic system.

Trade is also heavily abstracted. Trade is largely just a number, brought upon with a formula. MP3 adds three tradeable resources. Consumer Goods, Raw Materials, and Energy. However, for the most part, a player can somewhat ignore these. Somewhat.

Consumer Goods are removed from play by being converted to cash. This cash is put into a domestic bank and the country's vault via taxes. Raw Materials are drained via industry and building new units. Energy is drained via maintenance, industry, and population growth. The MAIN unit of exchange in MP3 is still a global currency (with different names, but still universal and global), and the cost of RMs and Energy can be in flux depending on supply and demand.

Consumer Goods, however, can not. Each consumer good is worth $10. Since 1 IP produces 5 Consumer Goods, that is $50. Therefore, if the cost of RMs and Energy to power 1 IP ever exceeds $50, the economy of the game will crash. However, since the only limit to resource production IS provinces, the flipside of the scenario is possible. Resources are so plentiful that a RGO-based economy simply can not work.

In other words, the most reliable source of income is trade revenue and population.

Fiat Homo

Spoiler :

Without getting into a long, drawn-out explanation of the system, the part will just be about the difference between the FH system and the usual system.

In the usual system, there is a hard, central number that outweighs all others in importance. In MP3, it is pure $$$. In Iron and Blood, it is Industrial Points.

The idea behind the FH system is that the main units of exchange, various currencies, are not the hard costs for units.

Money in Fiat Homo does not leave the game easily. If you pay workers or soldiers to do work, they keep the money. They spend that money to buy goods produced from factories, food being sold on market, or put the money in the bank. Factories take the money and spend it to expand business, buy resources to power factories, and pay workers. Some of this money returns to the government through taxes or tariffs, who can also just pay businesses to produce weapons, supply, fuel, etc.

Money actually only leaves the game when the government has a contractionary monetary policy and starts removing money from play. Even then, the government can not remove money already flowing in the economy without taxes and tariffs.

And since the main unit of exchange varies in worth, so does everything else depending on supply and demand. The worth of a single consumer good is influenced by demand by consumers, wages of consumers, the cost of food (consumers buy food first, so they can live), cost of energy, rare materials, metals, shipping the good (which is dependent on the cost of fuel, dependent on the cost of crude oil), and taxes and tariffs.

But as you can see, all these play off one another. The cost of energy is dependent on the cost of paying the workers, powering the RGO that produces energy, and demand by factories. The cost of Infantry (5 IP, an IP is produce by a factory depending on size, tier, and leadership modifier) is dependent on the goods needed to power the factory or factories to produce the IP, demand by the government for it, wages, etc.

The consequences of this system is that there aren't just specific actions one takes that influences the economy. Every act of diplomacy, every military action, and every trade agreement sends ripples throughout the economy.

Future of the Economy: The Big Circle

Spoiler :

Classic IOTs forgone players worrying about economic, military, and other hard mechanics in favor of interaction between players. Strangely, MP3 and Fiat Homo are taking steps back toward that direction. The idea is that the ruleset should be a car. Players can get behind the wheel of the car, learn how to steer the wheel, work the pedal and brake, and work the stick or automatic and be pretty much good to go.

The driver doesn't need to worry about what is going on beneath the hood, but looking and learning may prove beneficial in some cases.

In MP3, the game will automates parts of the economy for you. You don't need to tell the GM to put X resources into producing X consumer goods, because your economy will do it itself for you without prompting.

In the name of driving complexity, I think that automation options will grow to a point where a player will have the choice of going in-depth with whatever mechanic they want. A player who wants to leave the war game to the generals, the economy to the private market or the government overseers, and espionage to Varys will be able to and focus just on signing deals and engaging with players, giving only general objectives and guidelines to the economy, military, or intelligence to fit national policy.

This is what a potential Fiat Homo order could look like.

Hegemony ($300)
Raise income taxes to 25%
Lower corporate taxes to 20%
$150 to Military
$50 to Economic Ministers
$10 to Intelligence Ministers
$90 to Treasury

The Military will spend that money as they see fit, depending on their needs. Same with ministers and intelligence folk.The simplicity of the order hides the sheer amount of stuff going on behind these numbers.

Likewise, a military player can tell exactly what the money should be spent on, move individual units, set up the individual fortifications, manage the logistical train, etc if they want.

In the end, IOT is about choice and the economies of the game, should they continue to evolve, will probably attempt to turn the ruleset into a nice car, as opposed to a complex piece of machinery.

 

[Tyo]

Interesting read, sone. Especially that last bit.

 

[CivOasis]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12046248#post12046248

Into the Fire 2 has been posted!

 

[CivOasis]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12046248#post12046248

Into the Fire 2 has been posted!

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

Sone's talk about economy reminds me of a comment he made somewhere in the discussion of my op-ed about how there isn't really a civilian sphere to the budget. I'd been thinking about trying to develop such a system; maybe once I can finally muster some free time at the end of the month I'll elaborate. Some of the ideas:

- Separate infrastructure from industry and give it a maintenance cost. Bad roads mean bad service, means bad revenue.

- Establish a variable for quality of life and make social services an investment. State-subsidized health care makes the masses happier, but you gotta actually fund it.

- Create a civilian science sector. Like the above, it's an investment that would provide incremental benefits so long as the cash keeps flowing in.

- Make the costs progressive. The world doesn't work on 'pay fifty bucks, gain a level in GDP'; yearly expenses fluctuate based on population and national development. It's the difference between a budget and a shopping list.

I doubt I'd have the patience to run such a game, but it might be useful to the rest of you.

 

[Terrance888]

You guys might want to pop over to "SysNES" over in the NESing forum. Dis runs an extensive database run game with intricate economic systems and subsystems. I dunno, you might find some of his idea/equations useful. Lots of essays/micro-essays on economic theory in thread and in the pre-thread as well.

 

[Sonereal]

- Separate infrastructure from industry and give it a maintenance cost. Bad roads mean bad service, means bad revenue.

For Fiat Homo, I had planned on railroads. From an abstract, a simple infrastructure column should work.

- Establish a variable for quality of life and make social services an investment. State-subsidized health care makes the masses happier, but you gotta actually fund it.

Agreed.

- Create a civilian science sector. Like the above, it's an investment that would provide incremental benefits so long as the cash keeps flowing in.

- Make the costs progressive. The world doesn't work on 'pay fifty bucks, gain a level in GDP'; yearly expenses fluctuate based on population and national development. It's the difference between a budget and a shopping list.

These two ideas are actually central ideas in the ruleset I've been working on forever a day. Private businesses, player corporations, and player/NPC governments can put leadership on the payroll, who can be directed to work on projects ranging on increase output in factories to creating new unit blueprints. Since leadership is a limited resource, probably going to be influenced by education, leadership would demand higher wages than regular workers.

As for progressive costs, I'm pretty sure the monetary system I worked on would work for my needs. The worth of currency fluctuates based largely on the amount of it in the economy and its importance in trade. So, if your neighbor has a $100, and you have a $1000, but your neighbor is an affluent country with high amount of domestic consumption and international trade, his or her $100 might be worth more than your $1000.

Since the main unit of exchange can be printed and is something that doesn't just leave the game when you spend it, its worth should change over the course of the game.

Either way, should be interesting what you pop up. New ideas always welcomed.

You guys might want to pop over to "SysNES" over in the NESing forum. Dis runs an extensive database run game with intricate economic systems and subsystems. I dunno, you might find some of his idea/equations useful. Lots of essays/micro-essays on economic theory in thread and in the pre-thread as well.

SysNES scares even me and the GM should be crowned a saint.

But I should pop over and read deeper into it.

Edit: I found the manual. It satisfies my need for manuals that looks like manuals.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kg49yyanfnq2rj0/SysNES Rulebook.pdf

Edit: Got at least two or three new ides already.

 

[Terrance888]

Since the main unit of exchange can be printed and is something that doesn't just leave the game when you spend it, its worth should change over the course of the game.

This might be somewhat anti-thesical, but maybe you can have a hidden "worth" stat which serves as a baseline. So 1 "Worth" can buy X amounts of a standard good- a day's worth of the local grain? Weekly consumer groceries? I dunno. But this value would then serve as a hidden baseline for everything else while also being separate from direct currency-currency transaction?

For example, (WARNING! Personal experience may be inaccurate) I can buy a big mac for about 4 bucks in the USA. In china, I can buy one for 20 yuang. Back then it was 8 Yuan per buck, so the same big mac was worth 2.5 instead of 4.0 Dollars in China even though the conversion rate is 8 to 1.

 

[Sonereal]

This might be somewhat anti-thesical, but maybe you can have a hidden "worth" stat which serves as a baseline. So 1 "Worth" can buy X amounts of a standard good- a day's worth of the local grain? Weekly consumer groceries? I dunno. But this value would then serve as a hidden baseline for everything else while also being separate from direct currency-currency transaction?

I actually do have hidden baselines for consumer goods and food that fluctuates from turn to turn. I ran into the problem a few weeks ago when I realized that, if paid enough, a worker would keep buying consumer goods and food, even if he didn't "need" so much. This had ramifications for trade as one would imagine. But since I didn't have a hard number for demand, I had to make one, and make them hidden of course.

And, of course, demand varies from city to city as well for diversity.