Iran, the Red Sea, and the West (tm).

The killing and supporting terrorism is bad, but the West has invaded and deposed many of Irans neighbors to bad effect, and the last time Irans government was somewhat democratic, we installed a bloody king.

We've not acted as if we want trust and cooperation.
 
Well the Iranians played their part in that drama too...

If Iraq never had a chance to become a stable state that was at least in part their doing.


Iran’s influence in Iraq increased following the US invasion of 2003 and the fall of Saddam Hussein – but their relationship is far from being a simple agent-proxy arrangement. Iran’s strongest influence is through its paramilitaries’ presence in Iraq’s security apparatus, but Iraq has also exhibited some political independence from its neighbour and maintains financial leverage over Iran.

It is in this regard notable that Israel enjoys tacit support from Iraq and Syria, this is all far from as simple as you guys are making it out to be, I think we should keep our involvement minimal and see how we can profit from the situation.

It is what Sun Tzu would do :D
 
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Yeah the realignment in Syria towards being a fairly straightforward Sunni supremacist state, and its rapprochement with Israel seems to be very much about them aligning to suppress Shiites internally, push against Hezbollah and control Lebanon, and oppose Iran. Throw in the tacit Turkish consent and their anti Kurdish agenda too and it's collectively bad news for a lot of minority groups in the region.
 
According to Wikipedia, the Sunnis are the majority in Syria.

It was the previous situation whereby the Alawite minority ruled that was the undemocratic exception.



Or invade Greenland.
 
Who is "nobody", here?
those who will backstab Israel when it has done enough . Antisemitism is extremely real . Still . Expect higher efficiencies in gas chamber design , too .

this is why you can't strike Netanyahu down , with stuff like he turned his cheek and the cheek of the entire lsraeli security establishment and what not to the forthcoming Hamas attack back in October '23 . Even in a country li,e Israel where they have written tome upon tome on dirty tricks . And it is hard work in other places , too , considering the darlings of the West were in place , arming Sunnis in Syria in long range war against Russia . Armageddon is much easier , engineering enemies dominoes style .
 
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outside pressure has been brought in . "Who" shall remain a bit murky for a while ... but ı have a second part in the qouted post now .
 
There's been sporadic or sustained violence against Alawites, Druze, Christians. A lot of Shiites just fled. It's not a great situation for some of those groups. I think the Kurdish forces have largely reached an accord at the moment though.
 
@ Senethro My previous post did not mention ethnic supremacy.

@ r16 Iranian nukes may be more efficient than gas chambers.
Saying that the change has become democratic by specifically referencing minority vs. majority ethnic rule with the only adjective used being "undemocratic" kind of implies it does.

You didn't need to reference democracy at all, but it looks a little like you meant to.
 
kurdish forces are protected .

and the matter of PMs and stuff have come up somewhere . Unless it is moderators infracting me again , ı do not open PMs . Once ı wrote something positive about Indian Flankers , there was a terror attack , an hotel in Mumbai , ı think and some Indian sent me a PM in some other forum . Like because we are terrorists because Pakistan and stuff . While Indians are even less likely to pay attention to whatever pressure can do against Americans and whatnot , it is very safe to stick to principles . Have no shame or trouble in r16 being against Israel , any argument should take place here .
 
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@ Senethro : Please concentrate on what I write rather than incorrectly inferring things.

@ r16 : Alas, no one is protected against nukes.
 
nuke me and discover the veracity of the one single promise ı have ever made with regards to strategy and whatnot . Steady turbolazer fire .
 
@ Senethro : Please concentrate on what I write rather than incorrectly inferring things.

@ r16 : Alas, no one is protected against nukes.
How about just once deigning to clarify yourself or accept a correction?

If you don't mean the move to a different ethnic supremacy is less undemocratic, don't describe it in those terms.
 

Why Assad’s Fall Made Israel’s Large-Scale Air War With Iran Possible​

For roughly two decades, Israel has lobbied the United States to assist it in an air campaign aimed at destroying Iran’s nuclear program. Israel’s advanced air force lacked the range and secure lines of transit to sustain a large volume of strikes deep into Iran by itself.

Clearly that conventional wisdom had changed by this June 13 when the IDF initiated its large-scale aerial assault on Iran on, which Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said will last at least two weeks. Why, after all these years, did Israeli leadership decide it could go it alone?

Undoubtedly, the Israeli Air Force (IAF) benefited from years of capability enhancements including standoff-range missiles like Golden Horizon, long range drones, a growing fleet of F-35I stealth fighters, installation of aerodynamically efficient conformal fuel tanks on fighters, and more air defenses system capable of battling Iran’s ballistic missiles.

But also critical was the collapse of the Syrian government of Bashar al-Assad seven months earlier.

Historically, sheer geography has made it difficult for Iran and Israel to war directly against each other—with around 600 miles of hostile Syrian and Iraqi airspace interposing themselves, buffering Iran from Israel’s regionally dominant air force. To circumvent these obstacles, Tehran gradually developed and began amassing medium- and intermediate-range ballistic missiles that could reach Israel.

Map of Middle East including Israel and Iran

Vector map of Israel and Iran, including the areas of the West Bank and the Gaza strip and the ... More

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Jet fighters lugging heavy ground attack weapons, with spare fuel reserved for possible combat maneuvers, can’t fly as far as maximum range specifications for ‘clean’ aircraft would imply. But the IAF could execute long-distances raids using its seven jetliner-based KC-707 Re’em tankers (and seven less capable KC-130Hs), as it did repeatedly in 2024. However, that range extension was constrained by the risks of pushing the vulnerable tankers too close to hostile air defenses.


ISRAEL-POLITICS-ANNIVERSARY-INDEPENDENCE

Israeli Air Force KC707 tanker aircraft and F-16 Falcon fighter aircraft fly over during an air show ... More

Iraq’s air defense capability was destroyed by the U.S. in 2003, but Israeli jets still needed to enter Syrian airspace to get to Iraq. And alternate routes overflying Jordan and Saudi Arabia would involve angering relatively friendly states with air defense capabilities.

Still, Syria’s fall might seem unimportant given that Damascus’s large air defense system proved incapable of stopping roughly 14 years of continual Israeli airstrikes, managing to shoot down only one Israeli F-16 in 2018. The Israeli Air Force (IAF) basically wrote the book on modern suppression of enemy air defense (SEAD) tactics when it dismantled Syrian surface-to-air missile defenses in Lebanon in 1982 using a combination of fighters armed with standoff-range missiles, drones, and electronic warfare.

However, having to continually circumvent, overwhelm or selectively destroy Syrian air defenses still involved managing risks, and expenditures of resources and effort, reducing the ‘throughput’ the IAF could project against Iran itself.

Most importantly, Israel couldn’t risk sending its KC-707s into Syrian airspace as long as Damascus had active long-range, high-altitude missile systems like the S-200 and S-300 operational.

That reality changed when Bashar al-Assad’s government was abruptly overthrown by rebel forces last December. As Assad’s army evaporated, Syria’s air force and air defense apparatus became fully inactive. Though the new government was hostile to Iran, Netanyahu nonetheless had the IAF embark on an all-out bombing spree destroying most of Syria’s abandoned warplanes and high-altitude air defense systems (and it’s navy too), removing the new Syrian government’s ability to assert sovereignty, even ineffectively, over its airspace.

Israel hits 10 strategic military sites in Syria controlled by anti-Baath groups

DAMASCUS, SYRIA - DECEMBER 09: Abandoned 2K12 Kub (SA-6) air defense vehicle inside Mezzeh Air Base ... More

Anadolu via Getty Images
This opened a safe corridor for IAF tankers over Syria to accompany Israeli fighters and top them off right up to the edge of Iran’s air defense zone—a big effective boost in range for Israeli fighters.

Of course, not having to suppress both Syria and Iran’s air defenses simultaneously was an advantage. The corridor also improved Israel’s options for search and rescue of potential ejected pilots, and may have helped special forces insert into Iranian territory—and more pressingly, extract them after executing their surprise drone and missile attacks on June 13. Notably, two C-130 or KC-130H transport aircraft were recorded flying at low altitude over Syria that morning.


Such methods would have been more perilous if needing to traverse hundreds of miles of Syrian defenses too.

Iran’s loss of deterrence​

Another factor behind Israel’s 2025 war was Tehran’s loss of military deterrence in 2024, of which the fall of Syria was the final and most shocking in series of major setbacks.

Before 2024, both Iran and its Lebanon-based ally Hezbollah had spent many years building up arsenals of long-distance missiles, drones and rockets--and it was uncertain how successfully Israel’s air defense system would cope against a large-scale onslaught.

The first disaster arose from Hezbollah’s modest-scale border attacks against Israel, begun to show support for Hamas in Gaza. This eventually led to massive Israeli retaliation, including detonation of rigged cellphones and radios furnished to Hezbollah’s leadership cadres, and a massive bombing campaign targeting Hezbollah arsenals and commanders, culminating in the assassination of its leader Hassan Nasrallah. Hezbollah proved unable to counter-escalate convincingly.

The other shoe fell when Iran launched two brief but large-volume long-distance attacks on Israel: first, 320 drones and missiles that April, and then 200 ballistic missiles in October. Though the defensive effort to stop these attacks—involving the U.S. and several other countries’ air forces and navies—was extensive and expensive, they were also largely successful at preventing major military damage or extensive loss of life in Israel.

Iran’s broadsides thus may have inadvertently led Israeli leaders to estimate Iran’s long-range strike capabilities as less capable than some had feared. (In the current war, Iran’s missile raids targeting Israel have been more lethal and destructive than those in 2024, though not massively so, so far.)

Furthermore, an Israeli counterstrike on October 26 destroyed Iran’s most sophisticated air defense systems—Russian-origin S-300s batteries—substantiating IAF confidence it could deal with Iran’s dense but dated air defenses.

Thus Tehran’s strikes may inadvertently have made it a less intimidating target. Then the unexpected collapse of Assad in Syria removed its buffer. And the election of Donald Trump meant the U.S. was more likely to support an Israeli attack on Iran, whether by agreeing to the war in advance, or by not punishing Israel for defying pressure not to attack.

Israel mauled Iran’s air defenses. Now what?​

The IAF has established its ability to assail targets across western Iran, so far without evident aircraft losses. However, it lacks weapons capable of penetrating deep underground to destroy Iranian centrifuges in Natanz and Fordow. Some reports allege Natanz’s may have suffered significant damage due to loss of electrical power. True or not, Fordow—situated literally under a mountain—has sustained minimal if any damage so far.

Therefore, the centrifuges may vex Netanyahu’s war aims. Maybe the IDF has another rabbit to pull out of its hat—a secret weapon, or an improbably high-risk commando raid. Or Netanyahu may be hoping Iran’s retaliatory attacks trigger U.S. intervention, which could involve strikes by B-2 bombers armed with deep-penetrating GBU-57 bombs.

Netanyahu has also proclaimed the aim of regime change in Iran, or he might be satisfied by compelling policy concessions (as Tehran is already reportedly offering). Lastly, he may have a ‘mow the lawn’ concept for sustaining persistent attacks on Iranian efforts to rebuild nuclear facilities and ballistic missile assets beyond the scope of the current campaign, much as the IAF continually bombed Syria for over a decade.

However, geography may pose problems to a long-term bombardment concept due to Iran’s ‘strategic depth’, with territory extending over 800 miles east of its border with Iraq. Tehran might attempt to rebuild facilities and reconstitute forces in eastern Iran, where Israel’s strike capacity remains much more limited.

While Assad’s fall gave Israel a corridor by which to defy the tyranny of distance, key metrics—whether of aircraft fuel capacity or meters of soil and bedrock over subterranean centrifuges—will continue to shape its war with Iran.

Israeli air power reigns over Iran, but needs US for deeper impact​

  • Summary
  • Israel declares air superiority over Iran, Netanyahu calls it a 'game-changer'
  • Israeli warplanes refuel over Syria, showing freedom of action
  • Analyst says Israel able to act with impunity over Iran, but strategic success needs more than air power
  • Speed and scale of Israeli strikes caught many off guard, analyst says
JERUSALEM, June 17 (Reuters) - Israel's command of Iranian air space leaves few obstacles in the way of its expanding bombardment, though it will struggle to deal a knock-out blow to deeply buried nuclear sites without the U.S. joining the attack, experts say.
While Iran has responded with deadly missile strikes on Israeli cities, Israel has shown its military and intelligence pre-eminence as its warplanes have crisscrossed the Middle East, hitting Iranian nuclear installations, missile stockpiles, scientists, and generals - among other targets.

On Monday, several Israeli officials declared the establishment of air superiority over Iran. The military likened its control of Iranian skies to its command of the air space over other arenas of conflict with Iran-aligned enemies, such as over Gaza and Lebanon - where Israel continues to bomb at will.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Monday Israel's control of Iranian air space was "a game-changer". National Security Adviser Tzachi Hanegbi said pilots could operate "against countless more targets" over Tehran, thanks to the destruction of "dozens and dozens" of air defence batteries.

But even as Israeli officials laud the damage done so far, some publicly acknowledge Israel won't be able to completely knock out Iran's nuclear program - unless the U.S. joins the campaign with strategic bombers that can drop ordnance with the potential to penetrate sites buried deep underground.
Andreas Krieg, a senior lecturer at the School of Security Studies at King's College London, said Israel had achieved "quite a lot of operational and tactical successes ... But translating that into a strategic success will require more than what air power can deliver".
Krieg said even the heaviest U.S. bunker-busting bombs might struggle to penetrate Iran's deepest sites - in the event President Donald Trump decides to join the attack - suggesting special, commando-style forces might be needed on the ground.

Nevertheless, "Israel can act with impunity now, and they can do that in the way they did in it in Lebanon".
Israel launched its campaign on Friday, saying Tehran was on the verge of building a nuclear bomb - something Iran has always denied seeking from its uranium enrichment program.
While the Iranian military says it has downed Israeli warplanes, Israel denies this and says no crews or planes have been harmed during their missions to Iran, a return journey of some 3,000 km (2,000 miles) or more.
A senior Western defence source said Israeli warplanes have been refuelling over Syria - a bastion of Iranian influence until Bashar al-Assad was toppled in December. Israel is now operating over Syria with "near-total freedom", the source said.

ECHOES OF LEBANON​

Israel's assault bears echoes of last year's devastating offensive against Hezbollah in Lebanon, during which Israel wiped out the Tehran-aligned group's top command - including its leader Hassan Nasrallah - within the first days.

Two U.S. officials told Reuters on Sunday that President Donald Trump had vetoed an Israeli plan in recent days to kill Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
Netanyahu on Monday did not rule out targeting Khamenei, saying doing so would end the conflict.
Further echoing its 2024 campaign in Lebanon, the Israeli military on Monday issued an evacuation warning for a specific area of Tehran, saying in a post on X that it planned to target the "Iranian regime's military infrastructure" in the capital.

A regional intelligence source said Israel had built a "truly surprising" network of agents in Tehran, likening the targeted killings of top officials to the blows directed at Hezbollah's leadership. The source said Israel's ability to "penetrate Tehran from the inside" had been astonishing.
Justin Bronk, a senior research fellow at the RUSI think-tank in London, said Iran has "few technical answers" to the combination of Israeli F-35 aircraft capable of waging electronic warfare against its anti-aircraft systems, supported by F-16s and F-15s carrying precision-guided ballistic missiles.
Though Israel was long assessed to have the upper hand, the speed, scale and effectiveness of its strikes - particularly against top Iranian generals - caught many off guard, said Barin Kayaoglu, a Turkish defence analyst. Iran's military appeared to have been "sleeping at the wheel", he said.
However, he cited challenges for Israel, saying its air force could find it difficult to maintain the current tempo of its operations because of the need to replenish ammunition stocks and maintain warplanes.

WEAPONS SHIPPED​

In April, Israeli media reported an unusually large shipment of bombs arriving from the U.S. An unsourced report by public broadcaster Kan on April 17 said the delivery included hundreds of bombs, among them bunker busters.
Iranian air defences were damaged by Israeli strikes during exchanges of fire last year, Israeli officials said then. As last week's attack began, Israel said Mossad commandos on the ground in Iran destroyed more of Iran's anti-aircraft systems.
Despite Israeli air supremacy, Israeli officials have acknowledged that Iran's nuclear program cannot be disabled entirely by Israel's military, emphasising goals that fall short of its total destruction.
A former senior Israeli security official told Reuters that while U.S. military support was needed to do damage to Iran's most deeply buried facility, the Fordow enrichment plant, Israel was not counting on Washington joining the attack.
Israel has said it has not targeted Fordow - built beneath a mountain south of Tehran - to date, rather just the installations at Natanz and Isfahan.
Either way, the former official said Israel had already done enough meaningful damage to Iran's nuclear program, declining to be named so he could speak freely about sensitive matters.
If after the conflict ends Iran retained a residual uranium enrichment capability but not the people and facilities to do anything of concern with it, then this would be a major achievement, added the official.
Trump has repeatedly said Iran could end the war by agreeing to tough restrictions on its enrichment program.
Emily Harding from the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies said conventional wisdom held that Israel could not completely eliminate the deepest buried parts of Iran's nuclear program.
"But Israel has strongly hinted that it has more capability than that conventional wisdom would suggest. For example, the ability to operate freely over the target allows for multiple sorties that could do a lot of damage," she said.
 
ı would rather see their faces , seeing it after years of ostrich like head deep in the sand attitude talking about it can only be nuclear pumped x-rays and that won't do on earth because we would be vaporised nanoseconds before the target . Edward Teller is not an Hungarian ı find interesting . Otherwise , the standart answer should be like , that's your opinion, man.
 
The situation also seems objectively less dangerous a nuclear scenario than like, India and Pakistan. I'm just not buying an essentially normal and stable state like Iran as some special risk. Conservatism and repression do not, by themselves, create nuclear risk and none of it justifies a shooting war.
Of course not; they'd give it to a proxy to set off a dirty bomb somewhere then we'd be right back here saying "well who is to say Iran was behind it?" That is the exact purpose behind what Hamas, and the Houthis in Yemen, do now.

Lexicus is a temperamental guy I think, he is rightfully horrified by Israel's rape of Gaza and can't think reasonably about any topic including Israel anymore.
I don't think that's the case with Lexicus...If the goal of Israeli attacks is regime change in Iran, I am indifferent to that at best, opposed at worst. Though I don't think it is some monstrous crime. Just, something that the Iranians should do themselves. So I can understand the temperament.

But I cannot support that an Iran who wants to develop its own uranium absent of importing it (like what the US does, despite having its own reserves) where there can at least be some security against misusing it to make weapons instead. i.e. "you make bombs with this, you get no nuclear power."
I at least don't really think this is a hypocritical concept...
 
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