Iran, the Security Council, and the End of the World.

[Princeps]

Kinda gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling to see all those Stars and Stripes around.

Well, having it in such a simply image slightly distorts the situation, but for those lacking knowladge of geopolitics (if that's the right word )... it's something to think about.

Oh, and don't forget... This isn't "world police" action... Iran has been relatively peaceful, it's the USA that is moving like the orcs of Mordor against Iran mischief: ). So, who's the aggressor again?

I guess our precious free media has failed again to report proper context to the situation... Oh well.

 

[innonimatu]

Which are? Ceasing to be Israel and becoming palistine, nope, won't happen. Things will only escelate, creating a cold war II.

I don't think so. Israel has peace treaties with both Egypt and Jordan and these have been honoured. The price for peace with Syria is the return of the Golan Heights, the alleged problem mistrust between the two countries. The return could be negotiated tow, to take effect within a few years.

As for the palestinian problem... it is ridiculous that in an age when the traditional concept of sovereign state in under great pressure (the continent that saw the birth of the concept is trying to forsake it by building the EU) small states will fight so hard to gain independence. But the blame does lie with israeli policy, you can't have it both ways: control the territory where people live, while denying them full citizenship. If demographics and matters of national identity preclude the later, then Israel must get rid of these territories by granting them independence. Full independence. It would have been better to do so while promoting good relations with the former subjects than to do so after exhausting all alternatives, and keeping strips of their territory.
Creating a truly independent Palestinian state will not immediately solve all problems, but is an unavoidable first step.

 

[bhsup]

it's the USA that is moving like the orcs of Mordor against Iran mischief: ). So, who's the aggressor again?

If you're going to go Tolkien on us, let's pick the right side at least. The US and Israel being the last great alliance of Elves and Men against Sauron ( Ahmadinejad ) and his orc hoardes (the ruling council I guess).

 

[ShannonCT]

This is the reason why Iran is so keen to have nukes.

That just tells me that Iran is the only 800-pound idiot left in the room that doesn't realize the benefit of having friendly relations with the US.

Go ahead Iran. Get your 1 or 2 nukes that can fly a couple hundred miles, while the US, China, UK, Russia, etc have an arsenal that can blow you back to the Stone Age. I hope it makes you feel MUCH safer. Keep spending all of that oil money antagonizing the free world, while intelligent ME countries invest it in tourism and infrastructure. In fifty years, you'll be a big bowl of dust and camels and bedouins and no one will care anymore.

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

I say we should all stop building nukes (including the US). Nukes are cheating and they allways kill non combatants

 

[JohnRM]

This is the reason why Iran is so keen to have nukes.

All of those flags surround Iran, because Iran supports terrorists and is developing nukes, not the other way around.

 

[TheDervish]

Go ahead Iran ... In fifty years, you'll be a big bowl of dust and camels and bedouins and no one will care anymore.

Bedouins are Arab, Iranians are not Arab, so there would be very very few, if any Bedouins within Iranian borders. Sun Tzu says know yourself and know your enemy. To the library with you!

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

All of those flags surround Iran, because Iran supports terrorists and is developing nukes, not the other way around.

IIRC the US supports terrorists and builds nukes so we need to surround you guys aswell.

 

[Princeps]

If you're going to go Tolkien on us, let's pick the right side at least. The US and Israel being the last great alliance of Elves and Men against Sauron ( Ahmadinejad ) and his orc hoardes (the ruling council I guess).

Actually, I should have said Uruk-hais (and they're not from mordor...). I remembered a sceen in Rohan where Aragon commented on the marching Uruk-hai that "something evil is giving these beasts speed..." or something along the lines.

Well, US has been moving against Iran quite aggresively. To effectively surround Iran, even if it would cost the lives of hundreds of thousands, democracy and the sovereignity of a nation.

That just tells me that Iran is the only 800-pound idiot left in the room that doesn't realize the benefit of having friendly relations with the US.

Indeed, US is the aggressor.

You cannot seriously think that after all the misery US brought (and tried to bring) on Iran, that Iran would suddenly hail US as their friends...

Go ahead Iran. Get your 1 or 2 nukes that can fly a couple hundred miles, while the US, China, UK, Russia, etc have an arsenal that can blow you back to the Stone Age.

You again fail to understand again. Iran needs that nuke to keep the US out. Iran using their bomb on Tel Aviv (without US attack on Iran...) seems very unlikely. US attack on Iran doesn't.

US public might be war-weary now, but after 20 years, I think another US operation to "liberate" another ME country could be backed by the Congress. All you need is few rousing speeches with empty rhetoric and reeking hypocrisy. Few UN trade blocks to strangle Iran economically, and then blame the ayatollahs.

This is why Iran needs nukes.

 

[JohnRM]

IIRC the US supports terrorists and builds nukes so we need to surround you guys aswell.

Is that so? What terrorist organization do we support? Also, we have reduced our nuclear stockpile, almost unilaterally over the past decade, not increased it. Any comment?

 

[innonimatu]

This isn't "world police" action... Iran has been relatively peaceful, it's the USA that is moving like the orcs of Mordor against Iran mischief: ). So, who's the aggressor again?

I still have some hope this crisis will pass without anyone becoming an agressor. But about Iran being peacefull, to be peacefull is not to disturb the balance of power. In that sense, Iran is not being peacefull. Still, what it has done this far is within its rights, and other countries around the world have recentry done more damage to peace.

I very much doubt Iran, perceiving itself surrounded by enemies, can be pressured or persuaded to give up the ability to create nucelar weapons. But the average iranian is not a war-mongering lunatic, and I don't see any iranian government daring to start an offensive war, much less use nuclear weapons in such a war.

 

[skadistic]

Still, what it ( Iran )has done this far is within its rights.

So arming groups like Al sarers mahdi army to foment civil war in Iraq is with in its right? How about arming a plethera or terrorist orgs. so they can kill civians by targeting them on porpuse? I don't know if its a right but they sure are doinging everything they can to default on the nuclear non-poliferation treaty they signed.

 

[innonimatu]

Is that so? What terrorist organization do we support? Also, we have reduced our nuclear stockpile, almost unilaterally over the past decade, not increased it. Any comment?

You did supported the UCK in Kosovo, after having the group (correctly) listed as a terrorist organization and discretely removing it, before the campaign to amputate a bit more of former Yoguslavia started.

More to the point, it appears the american "administration" of Iraq had no qualms about taking over the support of a few small groups Saddam had used to attack Iran.

As for reducing the stockpile of nuclear weapons, that's only natural, those tens of thousands of warheads weren't necessary any more (if they ever were) and they must be expensive to maintain.

 

[JohnRM]

Negotiations on Iran in the UNSC have now entered their third month. Britain and France introduced a new draft of a resolution, aimed at bringing Russia and China on board, just two days ago. While this version is going over better, mostly because it has been watered down to near uselessness, it’s still running into problems. Don’t expect a vote till January at the earliest, and implementation…well, that could take years. The UN will not stop Iran.

Now I know that many of you will see this as yet another failure of the UN, but I think it’s important to understand that it is not. In fact, in this instance, the UN is doing exactly what it was designed to do. The original purpose of the UN was to provide a mechanism by which the great powers of the world could protect their interests diplomatically, rather than resorting to the battlefield. And, whether we like it or not, the fact of the matter is that stopping Iran from acquiring nukes is a much greater threat to the interests of some powers than a nuclear Iran is. Unless we can change that, the UN will, by design, be unable to address this issue meaningfully.

And while the capability of Israel and the United States to halt Iran's program is for debate, it's becoming clear that the will, or rather, the lack thereof, is not. The American public is in no mood for another war in the Middle East, and American politicians are reacting accordingly. Olmert wasn’t even up for Lebanon, and has made it clear that stopping Iran is Washington’s responsibility…or Germany’s, or the UN’s…or really anyone other than Israel.

All of which appears to Michael Freund on the verge of hysteria. If you thought Ahmadinejad liked to talk in Messianic and apocalyptic terms, check this action out. It has it all…divine rulers, a countdown to global meltdown, and, of course, references to Hitler. Wouldn’t be complete without that.

Why doesn't the US Ambassador just go out there and say, "Okay, Russia and China oppose doing anything of substance to stop Iran from developing nukes, I guess that is what they want."

Why can't we just say it? We all know that Russia and China don't want to stop it. They want to placate Iran, cause for one, China is dependent on Iranian oil. Russia...well Iran is simply a client state.

We need to take action now, unilaterally if necessary.

 

[ShannonCT]

Bedouins are Arab, Iranians are not Arab, so there would be very very few, if any Bedouins within Iranian borders. Sun Tzu says know yourself and know your enemy. To the library with you!

My bad. I should have used a more generic term like Nomads.

Actually, I should have said Uruk-hais (and they're not from mordor...). I remembered a sceen in Rohan where Aragon commented on the marching Uruk-hai that "something evil is giving these beasts speed..." or something along the lines.

This is how I see it:

You cannot seriously think that after all the misery US brought (and tried to bring) on Iran, that Iran would suddenly hail US as their friends...

Many countries have been enemies with the US at one point or another, and later decided it was in their best interest to bury the hatchet: China, Russia/USSR, Vietnam, Mexico, UK, Germany, Japan.....

You again fail to understand again. Iran needs that nuke to keep the US out. Iran using their bomb on Tel Aviv (without US attack on Iran...) seems very unlikely. US attack on Iran doesn't.

US public might be war-weary now, but after 20 years, I think another US operation to "liberate" another ME country could be backed by the Congress. All you need is few rousing speeches with empty rhetoric and reeking hypocrisy. Not that US really needs a congressional decloration for war...

This is why Iran needs nukes.

Iran getting the bomb wouldn't do a thing to keep the US out if it wanted to attack. Iran's bomb could never threaten US soil. Do you think they're going to use it as a tactical weapon against a column of tanks?

This is Iran's biggest mistake. It thinks that getting the bomb will solve all of it's problems and make it a big player. You'd think they'd learn a lesson from North Korea. Iran getting the bomb will only further isoltae it from the world and invite invasion.

 

[JohnRM]

You did supported the UCK in Kosovo, after having the group (correctly) listed as a terrorist organization and discretely removing it, before the campaign to amputate a bit more of former Yoguslavia started.

Could that have anything to do with the fact that their entire race was being exterminated en masse?

More to the point, it appears the american "administration" of Iraq had no qualms about taking over the support of a few small groups Saddam had used to attack Iran.

You're going to have to get a bit more specific than that. What groups are you talking about and what have we done to support them?

As for reducing the stockpile of nuclear weapons, that's only natural, those tens of thousands of warheads weren't necessary any more (if they ever were) and they must be expensive to maintain.

Explain to me why we decommisioned our 50 LGM-118 Peacekeeper missiles when they are a far better weapon that the LGM-30 Minuteman III? Why have we de-MIRV'ed our SLBMs? It doesn't save us money.

Regardless, Iran signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. That treaty allows the United States and others to maintain nuclear weapons, but not Iran. If they don't like it, at least be honest about it and withdraw from the treaty.

 

[Princeps]

Many countries have been enemies with the US at one point or another, and later decided it was in their best interest to bury the hatchet: China, Russia/USSR, Vietnam, Mexico, UK, Germany, Japan.....

Yes, of course... yet some countries never came together to talk. But that this excuses nothing; it is US that has attacked Iran before, It is US that openly mocks Iranian government evil and it is US that surrounding Iran currently.

You are only trying to dance around the obvious.

This is Iran's biggest mistake. It thinks that getting the bomb will solve all of it's problems and make it a big player.

Well, It is US that suddenly became paranoid about Iran having nukes. Basically, it was Iran's number one enemy that made accusations without any evidence and used them as excuse to futher carry out their plans. It was US that decided to invade its sovereign neighbour and futher move into Iran's area of influence.

Let's put it this way, Iran did pretty much nothing, but legally build up its defenses - the US suddenly jumped on them. That is being aggressive.

You'd think they'd learn a lesson from North Korea. Iran getting the bomb will only further isoltae it from the world and invite invasion.

But, this case is very much different.

 

[Little Raven]

Why can't we just say it? We all know that Russia and China don't want to stop it. They want to placate Iran, cause for one, China is dependent on Iranian oil. Russia...well Iran is simply a client state.

There are other reasons as well. Neither Russia or China is anxious to see more of those little flags scattered around the Middle East, and both of them know that any UN action will ultimately be carried out by US troops that ultimately answer to US interests.

But as to why we don't just say it...why would we? How would that improve the situation? We're not going to shame them into action...all it would accomplish is make China and Russia prissy. (er) Remember, this is politics we're talking about. Rarely is calling a spade a spade productive.

We need to take action now, unilaterally if necessary.

Or we need to reconcile ourselves to a nuclear Iran. I suspect Washington is opting for the latter.

 

[Katheryn]

Exactly...



Yes...




Well, Israel has yet to call for that, but oh well.

EDIT: Israel might not be calling for the destruction of an entire nation, but worse still, is currently wiping out an entire nation... off the map.

Iran, on the other hand, hasn't called for such either. They only refered to the oppressive regime which rules illegally in Palestine...

They do not rule illegally in Palestine.

They won the land fair and square, the same way they won it in Saudi Arabia, in Iraq, in Iran, in Syria, in all the countries in the Middle East.

They received it after World War I when the Allies won the war.

By decree, the same way any other nation is built.

Israel is just as legal as Jordan. As any other country in the region.

 

[bhsup]

A nuclear Iran wouldn't freak me out so bad if they had other folks in charge and a history of stable, sane action.