Iron now THE key resource? Rome and Russia new top civs?

[silent93]

Earlier today I played a marathon huge continents game. I had a small amount of iron, and by the end of the Ren, I had most of my continent in my hands, with Bismark holding out with Landschneck spam for a while. I looked around the map, and discovered that I had the ONLY Iron on my continent. All 4 units of iron. Horses bloody everwhere, but only 4 iron, and that at Thebes (I was Egypt, for that lovely UB). I consolidated, and teched for a bit, and as time went on, I discovered that my continent had absolutely zero oil or aluminium.

Thus, I say that 'even distribution' is not so accurate. (There was 2 units of coal in Bismark's territory before my riflemen took it from him.) My continent was absurdly resource poor.

 

[vranasm]

I had games where there was 0 iron on whole continent... Sometimes I feel like the limiting number of strategics for units was mistake on design too, even if at first it looked so tempting...

but people wrote it before launch, that this limitation favors too much big empires.

 

[alpaca]

How can a civilization be expected to properly locate iron deposits before they’ve identified the use for the ore?? It’s one thing to see a horse and realise it could be useful, before having figured out how to domesticate, train and use them, but what plausible explanation would there be to see iron before iron working??

From a gameplay perspective, it makes it interesting. Do you settle several cities early and take your chance on what you’ll find? Do you wait for your 3rd/4th cities to iron working? Do you rush iron working so that you know where to expand? I make the call on these decisions every game, and I’m glad there is a lot of risk in what iron you end up with. Iron working was a critical technological advancement, to make it anything less in the game would be a shame.

With the changes in this patch city defence will be easier, so if you luck out you should be able to survive as you tech hard for gunpowder. If you had great militaristic expectations and you can’t find a way to get iron, well, you’ll have to adapt and look towards the next wave of troops.

If they know how to work other metals, chances are they will find iron but don't find out how to use it yet (because it's more difficult than melting copper or creating bronze of it). Ancient civilizations used meteoric iron well before they figured out how to smelt relatively pure iron from ore.

From a gameplay perspective, it's not interesting at all. You just get a crapshot at whether iron is nearby in large quantities or not, and research the most expensive classical tech to find that out. If you switch it to Bronze Working, at least you won't lose 30 turns of research to go for IW. This adaptation is too painful if you went for an IW beeline, and most people will probably quite the game instead.

 

[gibbman]

We must not allow... a strategic resource gap!

Hah! Shades of Kennedy/Nixon...

 

[Bibor]

Hah! Shades of Kennedy/Nixon...

General Turgidson disapproves.

From a gameplay perspective, it's not interesting at all. You just get a crapshot at whether iron is nearby in large quantities or not, and research the most expensive classical tech to find that out. If you switch it to Bronze Working, at least you won't lose 30 turns of research to go for IW. This adaptation is too painful if you went for an IW beeline, and most people will probably quite the game instead.

I wouldn't neccessarily call it a loss, even if having Iron resource with Iron Working is desirable.

Iron Working (and its prerequisite) open up the Barracks, Armory and Heroic Epic. These can bring up a regular 50 Spearman to a level 2 promotion (usually 40% bonus in terrain of choice) along with at 15% increase in overall strength. And the Spearman is resourceless. Obviously we can argue that Barracks, Heroic Epic and the Armory cost and upkeep, but on the long run, for a warmonger, these are fantastic hammer investments.

My point being, Bronze and Iron Working also unlocks two buildings that boost your army strength by around 55% (HE 15% + two terrain promotions), even without actually revelaing iron. And these bonuses are maintained throughout the course of the whole game, since usually one city produces the majority of units.

And iron can be still traded for or gained from bribing a city-state.

Iron Working is an expensive tech, but it offers a lot of stuff: it unlocks two buildings, reveals and enables a strategic resource and a new unit.

 

[bryanw1995]

Even bronzeworking is kind of late I think. Horses you find with the first tech. It should be the same for iron.

the big knock on iron has always been that it was revealed very late and with a very expensive tech. it's cheaper tech-wise to beeline hbr than iw, plus horses are/were enormously more useful anyway. now horses are less useful (and the lowered flat-terrain penalty is bonus for slow-moving infantry while it hurts horsemen's fast attack/retreat power) but you can still get them before you even see where iron is on the map. good warmonger strat now will start with AH still. if you see lots of horses, proceed as usual. horses can still take cities, it just takes longer and you want one or two promos + a GG. if you are low on horses then beeline iw/steel instead of hbr.

 

[UWHabs]

It'd be neat if mining revealed "mineral deposits." The mineral deposits would include iron and coal, but would also include some dummy ones. Bronze working would reveal a few of those dummy deposits to be copper. At least then you would see what kind of odds you have in iron being close. Lots of mineral close by - you know you will likely have workable iron. Not so much, you probably skip it.

From a realism sense, that isn't even that bad. Once you can mine, you discover some precious resources. Then if you invest time in bronze working and forging iron, you discover which of them are actually usable.

 

[Bibor]

It'd be neat if mining revealed "mineral deposits."

I played both versions of Thalassicus' mods (reveled iron at Mining, changed Bronze Working). It doesn't affect the game much. Even if you don't have iron, you'll want the tech for the buildings.

 

[Ahriman]

Iron Working (and its prerequisite) open up the Barracks, Armory and Heroic Epic. These can bring up a regular 50 Spearman to a level 2 promotion (usually 40% bonus in terrain of choice) along with at 15% increase in overall strength. And the Spearman is resourceless. Obviously we can argue that Barracks, Heroic Epic and the Armory cost and upkeep, but on the long run, for a warmonger, these are fantastic hammer investments.

These are reasons to pick up iron working eventually.
They're not reasons to pick up iron working early. Who has the time to build barracks in every city, and an armory, and a wonder? Thats a huge hammer/time investment, when you should be building units.
The only reason to pick up iron working *early* is for iron-based units.
I agree strongly with alpaca that the current design is way too much of a crapshoot, particularly given the tendency for iron to be located in desert or tundra.

Why shouldn't a beeline for iron-working (for city assault) be as viable an option as a beeline for horseback-riding (for field dominance and pillage choking)?

(usually 40% bonus in terrain of choice)

Keep in mind that they're nerfing promotions. By how much we don't know.

And iron can be still traded for or gained from bribing a city-state.

City states that aren't far enough advanced won't be able to see the iron resource, so you can't get it from them.
Just because you can see they have iron doesn't mean you can get the iron through bribery.
So, with an early game beeline for iron, you can't trade for it until much later.

Iron Working is an expensive tech, but it offers a lot of stuff: it unlocks two buildings, reveals and enables a strategic resource and a new unit.

Great, so lets make it weaker, by moving the resource reveal earlier on.

 

[Bibor]

Great, so lets make it weaker, by moving the resource reveal earlier on.

Agreed, make Bronze Working reveal iron, increase the cost of BW slightly, reduce the cost of Iron Working slightly.

 

[Ahriman]

Agreed, make Bronze Working reveal iron

Sure.

increase the cost of BW slightly, reduce the cost of Iron Working slightly

Don't see any need for this.
They also have tech costs pretty rigidly in tiers; they're not going to tweak costs for individual techs.

Its not like every tech is of equal value anyway, even techs of the same tier.

Compare Civil Service to Engineering.
Chivalry to Compass.
Chemistry to Economics.
Rifling to Fertizilier.
Dynamite to Railroad.
Electronics to Penicillin.
Lasers to Ecology.
Robotics to Advanced Ballistics.

 

[Tabarnak]

since usually one city produces the majority of units.

In multiplayer the problem is if you want to survive ALL cities must produce units on a regular basis. And if you are stuck with 2 or 4 iron only, well you are pretty much screwed in most games with good players. About OP, well Catherine is stronger since she's the only civ to double iron, making iron working always interesting to get.

The importance of revealing iron at bronze working is enhanced by the nerf of horsemen coming in next patch. This will allow you to adjust more rapidly your strategies for a better defence/offence game.

That said, you will probably prefer beeline civil service instead of going needlessly to iron working, unless you are Russia.

 

[baronck]

To me, this sounds like it is making Civ5 "less fun" and "more work" then it has to be.

Happiness is a chores which although is needed, it literally breaks the game if you ICS or sweep civs.

For someone who regularly plays on Emperor for a challenge, the AI now gets even more of a leg up.

#FAIL

 

[Louis XXIV]

In multiplayer the problem is if you want to survive ALL cities must produce units on a regular basis. And if you are stuck with 2 or 4 iron only, well you are pretty much screwed in most games with good players. About OP, well Catherine is stronger since she's the only civ to double iron, making iron working always interesting to get.

The importance of revealing iron at bronze working is enhanced by the nerf of horsemen coming in next patch. This will allow you to adjust more rapidly your strategies for a better defence/offence game.

You can still use horsemen in a defensive strategy. I think MP will be, if you don't have iron, use horses to protect your territory and stay on the defensive until the Middle Ages. If you get to Cannons first, use them to go on the offensive.

 

[Bibor]

Don't see any need for this.

Actually, you're right. All other strategic resources are revealed before the technologies to utilize them are discovered (makes sense too). Why did they put iron to Iron Working? Hmm.

 

[Tabarnak]

You can still use horsemen in a defensive strategy. I think MP will be, if you don't have iron, use horses to protect your territory and stay on the defensive until the Middle Ages. If you get to Cannons first, use them to go on the offensive.

Exactly. That's why we need to see iron at bronze working. After Bronze working, if no iron, you can at least get horseback riding soon enough to use them efficiently if someone rush you.

Horses will not be an important part of an offensive strategy. Swords yes. Actually it's ok to let on ice iron working for many turns because horses can do a wonderful job for both offence and defence.

 

[neilkaz]

Agreed, make Bronze Working reveal iron, increase the cost of BW slightly, reduce the cost of Iron Working slightly.

Agreed also.

 

[Louis XXIV]

It doesn't entirely make sense to reveal iron working at bronze working. It makes more sense to reveal it at Mining, to be honest.

 

[Ahriman]

It doesn't entirely make sense to reveal iron working at bronze working. It makes more sense to reveal it at Mining, to be honest.

Are you meaning in a realism sense?
The tech tree and requirements don't come even close to realism for sooo many things.

Battleships require Telegraph.
Offshore oil wells require Refrigeration.
Windmills require Economics.
The Taj Mahal requires a Printing Press.
AA guns require radio.
Lancers require Metallurgy.
The Forbidden Palace requires Banking.

From a gameplay sense, I'm relatively indifferent, but it would be a big boost to Russia if iron were revealed at mining; extra tile yield that early is significant.

 

[Bibor]

It doesn't entirely make sense to reveal iron working at bronze working. It makes more sense to reveal it at Mining, to be honest.

Revealing iron at mining would make sense too, but it would make mining too aswesome as tech. Build mines, reveal iron (for also more production) and connect luxuries all with one tech? Woah! Having that extra production from iron mines would seriously boost super-early production. Remember, you can improve strategic resources the moment you reveal them.