Is A Citizenship Test For Immigrants A Good Idea?

Do You Support A Citizenship Test For Immigrants

  • Yes. If they come to the country they must fit in with its society.

    Votes: 5 14.7%
  • Yes. It is fair to ask immigrants to have a basic understanding of the country.

    Votes: 20 58.8%
  • No, There is no need for a citizenship test as most immigrants wish to be able to intergrate..

    Votes: 5 14.7%
  • No. Immigrants should be encouraged to keep their own culture and not change to fit in.

    Votes: 3 8.8%
  • Don't Know, Don't Care or Don't want to vote.

    Votes: 1 2.9%

  • Total voters
    34

MrPresident

Anglo-Saxon Liberal
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Location
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The idea for this thread comes from the British home secretary's decision that future immigrants seeking to become British citizens will have to pass a citizenship test. This will include basic English language skills and an understanding of British institutions and society. It was argued that this would help immigrants integrate into British society more easily. However it has come under attack as being "abhorrent" and "discriminatory".

Although this is about British policy it can be applied to any country who have immigrants (the obvious countries are Australia, United States and Germany). So I think it is fairly easy to apply this to your country and participate in the thread.
 
Sounds like a fair and simple measure, given the proviso that the test is fairly given, not in the manner of language tests given to immigrants coming to Australia under the White Australia Policy. It would provide a good basis for integration into the community.

If fairly set and impartially administrated, then it is not discriminatory, and is abhorent only to those who want no restrictions or regulations on immigration.
 
I would support a citizenship test for immigrants only if we also had a citizenship test for citizens. In fact, there are many immigrants who would make better citizens than some of the people who were born here.
 
Originally posted by Jimcat
I would support a citizenship test for immigrants only if we also had a citizenship test for citizens. In fact, there are many immigrants who would make better citizens than some of the people who were born here.

And what would you do with citizens who failed their citizenship test?
 
Originally posted by MrPresident
This will include basic English language skills and an understanding of British institutions and society.

Why do they need to speak english? It is after people get into a country that they will learn the language. It is alot easier to learn a language through immersion then by studying with books and tapes. And their are usually large immigrant communities in the big cities (where most new imigrants go) that will be able to help the new arrivals out.
 
Originally posted by Whiskey Priest
Why do they need to speak english? It is after people get into a country that they will learn the language. It is alot easier to learn a language through immersion then by studying with books and tapes. And their are usually large immigrant communities in the big cities (where most new imigrants go) that will be able to help the new arrivals out.
Although I don't think much of the idea of citizenship tests, I would say the immigrants communities aren't helpful in learning the language. On the contrary I'd say that these communities are one of the major reasons for the problem that many immigrants don't learn the language of the country fast and good. Most people speak their native language if they are in a group of other native speakers. So that rather prevents them from learning english (or whatever) than helping them.
 
I'm in Canada, where I think we have a pretty basic test. My problem with this thread is not the whole issue of whether immigrants get one; I think they should, and my very positive experience with Canadian immigrants suggests that they generally would pass many such tests without trouble. My problem is that the UK, US, Canada and many other like countries would probably be better served to apply such a test to native born citizens, who are often so carelessly ignorant that they would have difficulty "earning" their citizenship in such a fashion.

Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers was pretty fascist in its thinking, but in its whole idea that only those who've served in the armed forces could vote, it did have a point; citizenship that comes too cheaply is esteemed too lightly.
 
Oh sorry. That last statement was directed more at the institutions and society aspect. These communities will probably help integrate the person into society. As for language I see no reason why they should have to learn the local language at all. It might be in their best interest, but I will leave that decision up to the individual. I was mearly pointing out that it is easier to learn a language when immersed in it.
 
Whiskey Priest, why do you think they shouldn't learn the local language? How else should they communicate with the locals then? I don't think it's very nationalistic to expect a citizen of some state to speak the official language at least to a point of basic communication.

But to the advocates of the tests: What exactly would you ask in such tests?
 
Originally posted by Richard III
Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers was pretty fascist in its thinking,

That must be why I like it so much;)
Citizenship is not something that should be given out for free. It, and the rights inherent to it, must be earnt. However, this does not seem likely to be introduced in the immediate future.

I do think that people should be strongly encouraged to learn the local language, and immerse themselves in the general culture, instead of dwelling solely in racial sub cultures. Many immigrants did not have to learn the local language, and are confined to living and working within their immediate family group, which in some cases is directly disadvantageous.

As to the composition of such a test, I am unsure, but it would include basic national information, affairs, and history, as well as language skills.
Instead of a single arbitrary test, I picture something more like a compulsary class or education session, conducted in a friendly, non-intimidatory fashion.
 
I could care less if the immigrants knew American history if they want to live in our country. I just think they should know English at a level that lets them and us be able to interact. I ran into a situation in the Army where this one guy from Puerto Rice (yes, part of the USA!) joined the Army and had to spend weeks at a training camp for those that cannot speak English well. When they finally shipped him off he was still practically useless (a decent worker, but he couldn't understand us and vice a versa). This guy was a professor at one of the Puerto Rico universities (according to what he said).
 
The point I'm trying to make is that language should not be a prerequisite (sp?) for becoming a landed immigrant. As I said before Immersion is the best way to learn a language. So I would say then that it would be un-fair to expect them to speak it before they immigrate. Now if we remove the language requirment from the application process, and assuming there are no other reasons for turning bacak the individual (criminal, spy, whatever) then he/she would become a citizen without knowing the official language. Now if they are a citizen they will have recognized rights under the law. And any law that is passed that would require them to speak any language would violate those rights. Do I think it is in their best interest to learn the language? Of course. Do I think that there is any way we can fairly make this happen? No.
 
I thought these tests (in the US anyway) were given after the immigrant has spent a few years here. Since an immigrant must wait seven years before being eligible for US citizenship (before that they have a green card, but are NOT citizens), we can assume the immigrant had an opportunity for seven years of immersion. I spent ONE year in Guatemala and became quite proficient in Spanish in that time--seven years is plenty of time....

If this test is administered "at the border", of course it will fail many. But is it? I assume (a UK citizen can clarify) that the UK, like the US, has a "waiting period" before immigrants can be eligible for citizenship, and can thus take this test.

The question of the thread though is SHOULD they have tests like this? I would say, they should probably have a test on the Constitution and the basic system of government, etc.--so that they are at least informed of their rights in society, so no one can take advantage of their not knowing. As for overall language proficiency (beyond this test of the Constitution being given in English), I don't see where this is universally relevant for ALL citizens. Sure, it is beneficial to most, but an elderly immigrant (who will find much more difficulty learning a new language due to his age) surrounded by his more proficient children will not suffer so much as a young immigrant on his own. In fact, many older immigrants to the US during the 1800s and early 1900s never really learned English, they left that to their children--and yet they made out fine, and often prospered to the benefit of the rest of society.

But at any rate, some people assimilate language easier than others (based on factors other than an advantage observed based on youth), but that ability isn't necessarily a requirement for succeeding here. I would say you should know enough English to communicate basic information, but how good you are at grammar or spelling (unless you plan to attend universities here, in which case you take a more rigorous TOEFL exam) isn't all that relevant. Or, however important it IS should be determined by an individual in whatever circumstances he finds himself in during his "waiting period" for citizenship. I think a better test is what he has DONE during the "waiting period"--is he gainfully employed or more or less self-sufficient (or being fully taken care of by his family's resources at least), rather than dependent on the state? Has he kept out of trouble with the law? THESE things, IMHO, are more relevant to good citizenship than ability in English.
 
Originally posted by Whiskey Priest
Do I think that there is any way we can fairly make this happen? No.

We could stop printing forms in Mandarin Chinese, etc. for starters.
 
Originally posted by Michiel de Ruyter


And what would you do with citizens who failed their citizenship test?

Take away their right to vote or run for office, for starters. I've always thought that giving the vote to everyone who happened to be born in the country and above a certain age was a poor way to run a country. It leads to power-hungry demagogues being elected by hordes of uneducated yahoos who will vote for anyone who promises them more government dollars into their states, towns, or wallets.

People should be required to have a thorough understanding of their country and how it works before being allowed to participate in its government.

And if I had real dictatorial power, I'd use it as a population-control measure. But that's just fantasy.
 
I saw an example of 20 questions frequently seen on a Citizenship test in the U.S. and answered all 20 correctly without much thought... of course, I'm just an ignorant American, so they were probably bad questions.

The questions were primarily about major parts of U.S. history, especially revolutionary and the Constitution. I wish I had the book handy and I could post some of the questions here.

Eligibility for citizenship is not instant, there is time to assimilate, as was mentioned before. Both of my parents came to the U.S. in the 60's as penniless immigrants and are citizens today. The process if fairly lengthy even for those that have been here a while, they were well established in American society before they got very far with the process.

Carl Sagan suggested that citizenship pledge should involve something along the lines of "I will always be skeptical and question what my leaders tell me." I think that is a great idea... put it in the pledge.
 
While I'm all in favour of citizenship tests, I can't see the point in turning one of the most important tests you could take into a Standard Grade History Exam.

Why do you need to know history to be a citizen? I never took history in school, so I would know less that immigrants would if they passed a citizenship test.
 
However much I would like the test to include a lot of history, I actually don't think it MUST. Rather, I think every citizen should know:

Where (geographically) their country is in the world

How it got to be a country

What its commitments are in the world and why (e.g. treaty commitments like NATO)

What, if any, rights are enshrined in the country's bill of rights or equivalent, and an understanding of how these are protected and how they are limited

In federal systems, what the different levels of government are
responsible for

How the electoral system works

And how a law is made

I don't think these are irrelvant facts at all. They may not be relevant to people just hanging out, but for people who are given a franchise and the right to exercise it, they sure are.
 
If we would allow immigrants to flow free without understanding the language of their new land,
the original culture of the land will eventually be destroyed (at least in finland)


These tests are a great idea!:goodjob:
 
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