Is being gay morally wrong?

[Eran of Arcadia]

@B3K: Well, how do we define "morality" then?

The answer to the question in the thread title is, of course, "depends on who you ask, and how you define 'gay', 'moral', and 'wrong'."

 

[Atlas14]

Not morally wrong, just gross in many instances. Same with some hetero relationships that turn sexual.

 

[Sidhe]

Moral reason isn't meant to be rational its meant to please god, the benifits are the say as not sleeping around with a bunch of people you avoid STD's.

Discrimination has lead to an underground culture that is still ingrained in the gay community, of promiscuous sex etc.

Also since civil ceremonies are illegal in many states then people cannot even form long term relationships on the same level as the straight population, there is no incentive either financially or legally in some cases to change their culture, although they have to reflect AIDS; mind you the heterosexual population hasn't, which may explain why it's catching up and will if trends continue far surpass the gay community, world wide of course it did that ages ago, and is soon to become a disease that is more prevalent in women.

This is not good enough, it is this sort of discrimination that has lead to the gay community adopting it's practices in the first place. Driving it underground making it sinful and illegal.

 

[Old Spice]

Kant would beg to differ on the "isn't meant to be rational" part.

Morality does not require religion as a prerequisite, as it is possible to create a moral theory through rationally.

Does that mean that all Morality must me come from rationality and if it doesn't does that mean it is not a "moral"?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Discrimination against homosexuality is not the same thing as saying that it is morally wrong, and cannot be blamed entirely on religion. Further, not all the 'negative' aspects of the "gay community" can be blamed on discrimination.

 

[capslock]

Aye but the point is, that your asking someone to effectively stop being what they were born to be in some cases, even preachers have been unable to do this, to in effect become asexual.

Would you feel all right with having that limitation placed on your sexuality because of old societal laws, that in a modern world are considered redundant, at least in secular Europe?

Many Catholic priests are not only gay, but also pedophiles. The Catholic Church never took a strong stand against such behavior, now it is causing HUGE problems for them.

NOT forcing people to control their behavior, and NOT punishing those who give into their "natural" urges, is the problem, as evidenced by the Catholic Church.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

So are you saying that homosexuality=pedophilia? That gay people, if they can't have relationships with members of their sex, invariably turn to children? Or could the problem in the Catholic Church be mostly due to other causes?

 

[shortguy]

Morally wrong to you, but really do you think the secular world cares about your opinion, since we've introduced laws in Europe making discrimination against gays illegal, and even voicing this opinion in public or to a crowd of people could get you locked up, you'll have to do better than that. Yes we discriminate against religious bigotry. If 400 million people are going to hell, so be it.

Why would he care if the "secular world" cares about his opinion? Weight of numbers doesn't make the "secular world" right.

No one secular or many religious even, are going to consider it without a reason other than God said so?

Well, if what God says is very important than you, then there's no need for another reason, now, is there?

 

[capslock]

So are you saying that homosexuality=pedophilia? That gay people, if they can't have relationships with members of their sex, invariably turn to children? Or could the problem in the Catholic Church be mostly due to other causes?

What? I didn't say anything like that. Maybe you should re-read my post.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Shortguy is right; I don't care what 400 million Europeans say, but what God says. And for the umpteenth time, thinking that homosexual acts is wrong is not the same as being a bigot.

 

[Old Spice]

Discrimination has lead to an underground culture that is still ingrained in the gay community, of promiscuous sex etc.

Also since civil ceremonies are illegal in many states then people cannot even form long term relationships on the same level as the straight population, there is no incentive either financially or legally in some cases to change their culture, although they have to reflect AIDS; mind you the heterosexual population hasn't, which may explain why it's catching up and will if trends continue far surpass the gay community, world wide of course it did that ages ago, and is soon to become a disease that is more prevalent in women.

This is not good enough, it is this sort of discrimination that has lead to the gay community adopting it's practices in the first place. Driving it underground making it sinful and illegal.

HOw can being discriminated aginisnt cause you to have more then one sexual partner. Thats a choice not something that is forced upon you be society.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Many Catholic priests are not only gay, but also pedophiles. The Catholic Church never took a strong stand against such behavior, now it is causing HUGE problems for them.

NOT forcing people to control their behavior, and NOT punishing those who give into their "natural" urges, is the problem, as evidenced by the Catholic Church.

What? I didn't say anything like that. Maybe you should re-read my post.

You seemed to be implying it. I don't believe that you mean it, but saying that pedophilia among Catholic priests is due to forcing them to repress their homosexuality is, ultimately, kind of offensive to gay people; as though, if they can't have men, they will invariably turn to children.

 

[Sidhe]

HOw can being discriminated aginisnt cause you to have more then one sexual partner. Thats a choice not something that is forced upon you be society.

I think forcing it underground makes an already sexually promiscuous culture- ie that of heterosexual of men who would if they could in many cases - worse.

if it's already illegal or wrong, then what impetus to behave to the conventions of society, and so your even more likely to be promiscuous. And even worse there's no incentive to from long term relationships as there is in the heterosexual community, at least in the US in many cases.

Shortguy is right; I don't care what 400 million Europeans say, but what God says. And for the umpteenth time, thinking that homosexual acts is wrong is not the same as being a bigot.

Who said that? From my perspective ethically wrong, but it's your lookout.

Nope. Here's a more interesting thread for you to start : "Is feeling attraction to legally underage people morally wrong?"

Or perhaps "Is wanting to have sex with your mother morally wrong" (according to Frued we all used to ).

Alot of Freuyds ideas are quackery now, a brilliant man if not rather too obsessed with sex.

 

[capslock]

You seemed to be implying it. I don't believe that you mean it, but saying that pedophilia among Catholic priests is due to forcing them to repress their homosexuality is, ultimately, kind of offensive to gay people; as though, if they can't have men, they will invariably turn to children.

Dude, you are way off, still. I never said, or implied that pedophilia is caused by them repressing their homosexuality. I didn't even come CLOSE to impying that.

What I said was, the Catholic Church has a big problem because it hasn't dealt strongly against pedophilia/homosexuality in the priesthood. I seperated pedophilia and homosexuality because they aren't necessarily connected. I have no clue how you thought I was implying the opposite.

I also never said anything about Catholic priests being forced to repress their homosexulaity. That is absurd, the problem is quite the opposite. That they HAVEN'T been repressing it. They have been actively engaging in homosexuality to a point that they have earned the nickname "The Pink (or lavander) Maphia."

My whole point is compeletly the opposite of what you read. I have no clue how you are so far off, I thought I was being pretty clear.

 

[Old Spice]

So gay people in the USA like to sleep around because other people think its wrong to have homosexual relations? That seems to be going aginisn't everything they have been fighting for lately.

In response to sidhe.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@Capslock: no need to get upset. I know you didn't think that homosexuality and pedophilia are the same thing, or even necessarily connected, but you kind of came across that way in your first post.

Who said that? From my perspective ethically wrong, but it's your lookout.

Wait, are you saying it is ethically wrong to think that homosexual acts are morally wrong, or what? If so, how are you defining "ethical"?

 

[Sidhe]

So gay people in the USA like to sleep around because other people think its wrong to have homosexual relations? That seems to be going aginisn't everything they have been fighting for lately.

In response to sidhe.

It's why the culture exists to the extent it does, even if they want to divorce themselves from it given equal rights.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It's why the culture exists to the extent it does, even if they want to divorce themselves from it given equal rights.

So all the bath houses (which I hear are far more common in Europe . . .), the interior decorating, everything that makes up the stereotypical "gay culture", is the result of the disapproval of straight people? That makes no sense.

 

[Sidhe]

@Capslock: no need to get upset. I know you didn't think that homosexuality and pedophilia are the same thing, or even necessarily connected, but you kind of came across that way in your first post.



Wait, are you saying it is ethically wrong to think that homosexual acts are morally wrong, or what? If so, how are you defining "ethical"?

Ethical means the consideration of morals, ie which codes are the most viable in a society. And yes it is considered in Europe: that to think homosexual acts are morally wrong is in fact unethical, thus gay sex is legal and thus you cannot discriminate against someone who indulges in it. I know we're all going to hell for thinking it so, but that's secular Europe for you.

So all the bath houses (which I hear are far more common in Europe . . .), the interior decorating, everything that makes up the stereotypical "gay culture", is the result of the disapproval of straight people? That makes no sense.

Not all in fact much of it is just the nature of sexuality in men straight or gay, but the reason it still is predominantly their culture is because of discrimination, if they had an incentive to become monogamous it would not be so widely practised, but in many cases they don't.

I don't think bath houses are as common in Europe to the extent of the US, although they are a European invention, usually they're multi sex and multi sexuality AFAIK, I think that's a US thing, but I'd be interested to see you prove me wrong, AFAIK we don't really have bathhouses like that, and particularly not ones that are solely limited to one sexuality, that would be discriminatory, although not illegal, I'm sure it happens, but I know of no bath houses in my city at all.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Ethical means the consideration of morals, ie which codes are the most viable in a society, and yes it is considered in Europe that to think homosexual acts are morally wrong is in fact unethical, thus gay sex is legal and thus you cannot discriminate against someone who indulges in it.

Now you are seeming to imply that "unethical" and illegal" are the same, and directly implying that discrimination and dislike are the same. Yes, discrimination on the basis of homosexuality (or anything) should be wrong, but does that mean that it is unethical not to accept it?