Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Cheetah]

It seems the EU Commission civil servants have a well earned reputation for being elite.

What does the commission has to do with us renegotiating our fees?

 

[EnglishEdward]

What does the commission has to do with us renegotiating our fees?

Well for the EU getting a nine year fee deal just before
1/7 of the benefit offered disappears seems smart.

I may have confused the mechanics. If Norway was not negotiating
with the EU Commission, who was Norway negotiating with?

 

[Cheetah]

They're ten-year agreements about the fee amount we pay for access to the common market. When one expires, we make a new one. And while I can see the argument for changing if the UK isn't there anymore, at the moment we don't know if (1) the UK will definitely leave, (2) when they will do so, or (3) what deals, if any, they will get in place by the time they leave.

If the UK does invoke Article 50 within the next couple of months, you'll still be part of the common market for two more years anyway. By the time you're out, about 4 years will have already passed on the current agreement we have.

I'd rather we have a proper discussion about our relationship to the EU, than simply asking for a cut in the fee. Though I suppose you're right. There might be a point in renegotiating the fees at that time. I'm not sure it would be worth the effort though.

 

[Atticus]

The problem with UK invoking the article 50 is that by doing so they set a time limit for the negotiations to end. After that they've lost pretty much of their bargaining chips. That's why they're going to linger indefinitely with it.

 

[Old Hippy]

The problem with UK invoking the article 50 is that by doing so they set a time limit for the negotiations to end. After that they've lost pretty much of their bargaining chips. That's why they're going to linger indefinitely with it.

there is the alternate view too.
which is why Merkel has said there will be no negotiations before the are told, throwing it back on the UK, they will have to explain their lack of progress to the public and take the heat for all the finical problems for being slow, like losing their AAA rating down to AA+ and the longer it takes the more racial and immigrant problems will get worst.

The EU has no wish to drag this out, that is the UK,s bargaining chip, they just have to get their act together

 

[Arakhor]

David Cameron renewed the BBC's charter on very favourable terms for the over paid BBC executives shortly before the campaign really warmed up. I think that was part of an underhand understanding the BBC would only publicise the more eccentric Brexiters.

How else do you think Remain got as much as 48% of the vote?

Really? Remain only got 48% because the BBC was actively complicit in spreading pro-Remain propaganda? Are you actually being serious?

 

[Lexicus]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075

I'd like to hear more about how this vote had nothing, nothing, to do with racism.

 

[Kyriakos]

Really? Remain only got 48% because the BBC was actively complicit in spreading pro-Remain propaganda? Are you actually being serious?

It likely backfired, but isn't your view that Bbc was clearly pro-Remain and not neutral? (i mean it shows even worse now).

 

[Manfred Belheim]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075

I'd like to hear more about how this vote had nothing, nothing, to do with racism.

Unless you're claiming that 52% of the UK population are actively, overtly racist then there's nothing here to defend. Yes some people are racist. Unless you can provide evidence of 17 million individual racist acts (or a significant portion of that) then you can't honestly claim this is representative of the whole of the Leave electorate. You absolute fool.

Edit: And yes, I will apologise for the insult that will most likely get me an infraction, but I'm going to leave it in because this IS foolish. Immensely and exasperatingly foolish and utterly childish reasoning. And if you're going to keep peddling it as if you think it's a reasonable argument then you can only be a fool. It's really getting tiring now.

 

[Lexicus]

Well, actually I would argue that 100% of the UK population is racist because that's how racism works (we're all racist, it's just some of us prefer to pretend we aren't).

My point is that Leave's victory is a victory for the forces of reaction and should be treated as such. People on the left claiming this as a victory for the left are wrong. As a pro-Remain lefty they interviewed recently on Democracy Now! put it:

I don’t think this is anything else but a massive defeat for progressive forces, not just in the U.K., but across Europe. You know, we see celebration from the likes of Marine Le Pen of the far-right National Front in France, Geert Wilders in Holland, far-right forces in Germany and Austria. This is a victory that the most unsavory parts of politics, not just here in the U.K., but across Europe, are celebrating. And I think, as people who are progressives and believe in an anti-racist, anti-xenophobic future for our country and for our continent, we should be very, very worried. We’ve woken up today to a Britain in which it is a much, much scarier place to be a migrant.

And, yes, I mean, there are many problems with the European Union. My campaign, Another Europe is Possible, we campaigned explicitly to stay in to change it, to make it into a better organization, to democratize it. The EU is—what the EU did in Greece was an abomination. But that—I mean, despite all that, what is definitely clear is that this referendum, which has been fought by the leave camp pretty much on two issues, one of which is—sort of basically lies about putting more money into NHS, which I think everyone almost agrees, including many people in the leave side agree, were basically untrue, and the second issue, which I think was probably overwhelming and probably led to their victory, was immigration. And I think that should scare us a lot. And it does scare me. I have been up all night, and I’m genuinely terrified about the future for this country and this continent. And, you know, from Trump in America to Le Pen in France, the enemies of progressive politics, the enemies of internationalism are celebrating, and we should be worried.

 

[Old Hippy]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075

I'd like to hear more about how this vote had nothing, nothing, to do with racism.

I think even the racism is a symptom of something deeper, a general disconnect with the whole materialist global economy, the hatred in most western countries is no more different than what comes out at G7/G20 meetings, riots and protests but that crowd does not seem racist there. trump/Bernie are symptoms too, of a Global madness that seems to grip people like lemming jumping off a cliff

Spoiler :

Link to video.

 

[metalhead]

Voting the interests of the racists and nationalists normalizes their behavior. You can't cast your lot in with them and then cry foul when they feel empowered.

If you find this distasteful, you should have considered that before voting "Leave."

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Well, actually I would argue that 100% of the UK population is racist because that's how racism works (we're all racist, it's just some of us prefer to pretend we aren't).

My point is that Leave's victory is a victory for the forces of reaction and should be treated as such. People on the left claiming this as a victory for the left are wrong. As a pro-Remain lefty they interviewed recently on Democracy Now! put it:

If Scotland had voted to leave the UK two years ago, knowing full well that that would lead to exactly the same uncertainty over EU membership and exactly the same financial and political upheaval that we're seeing now (they didn't even know what bloody currency they'd be using afterwards), would you have condemned the "Yes" voters (or "No", can't remember which way round it was) as xenophobic, racist, ignorant, hateful bigots? Because, as I've said, at the time it was actually the young demographic who voted for that, and again were moaning about the older demographic voting for economic and political stability. Now I don't know your opinion on all that and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it does seem to me that we're now in Bizarro world where we have essentially the same situation again (albeit on a larger scale), only this time the electorate are voting and behaving in exactly the opposite manner, and are being judged on exactly the opposite terms.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Voting the interests of the racists and nationalists normalizes their behavior. You can't cast your lot in with them and then cry foul when they feel empowered.

If you find this distasteful, you should have considered that before voting "Leave."

Collectivist nonsense.

 

[Lexicus]

Racism is one of the most important factors upholding the unfairness and brutality of the materialist economy. If racism wasn't constantly operative then people in Western countries would be a lot less ready to tolerate the kinds of human rights abuses that happen so they can have their iPhones and other toys.

 

[Lexicus]

If Scotland had voted to leave the UK two years ago, knowing full well that that would lead to exactly the same uncertainty over EU membership and exactly the same financial and political upheaval that we're seeing now (they didn't even know what bloody currency they'd be using afterwards), would you have condemned the "Yes" voters (or "No", can't remember which way round it was) as xenophobic, racist, ignorant, hateful bigots?

I'm curious, when did I condemn the Leave voters as any of these things? Now that you mention it, I do of course think many of them were motivated by xenophobia, racism, bigotry, and hate (it's fairly obvious that this is the case and it was obvious before the vote from the nature of the Leave campaign), but certainly not all.

As for the Scotland comparison, Traitorfish already said it:

Nah. People associate advocacy of Britain leaving the EU with the right, xenophobia and bigotry because those groups advocating most prominently for Britain leaving Europe are right-wing, xenophoic and bigoted, while they associated advocacy of Scottish independence with the left, forward-thinking and progressivism because those groups advocating most prominently for Scotland existing the Union are left-wing, forward-thinking and progressive.

Euroscepticism is not inherently right-wing and Scottish seperatism is not inherently left-wing. There are left-wing Eurosceptics and even a few right-wing Scottish seperatists. But, in the UK, Euroscepticism has effectively been a force for reaction and Scottish separatism a force for- well, perhaps not "progress", but at least a rear-guard action on behalf of cultural pluralism and the welfare state.

You can't blame people for associating a movement with the people who predominate within that movement.

 

[Akka]

It's obvious there was also an element of racism in the Out side, especially with the prominent place of immigration.

It's also simplistic to claim as if it was mainly racism. Even wanting to limit immigration is not racism, and there were a lot of other elements for the Brexit (half of them being lies and ignorance, but that's another matter).
And on top of being simplistic, it's counter-productive. Trying to corner people into being able to call them racist, and them attempt to shame them out of their opinion with racism accusation, is rarely going to work, and will more often than not do the exact opposite.

The populist parties have been mocked as "protest vote" and "racist bigots" for years, it certainly didn't prevent them to rise.

 

[metalhead]

Collectivist nonsense.

No, sorry. You don't get to vote for something, and then when wholly foreseeable terrible things happen as a result, claim you aren't responsible for it. Own your vote and its ramifications, good and bad.

When the Trumps, Putins, Farages, Palins, and Le Pens of the world are celebrating something, it's fair to think that those who voted for it are firmly on the wrong side of history. There's no undoing that this is what you voted for.

 

[Lexicus]

@akka I don't deal in 'racism accusations,' I already said everyone is racist (including me). "Racism accusations" and treating racism as an individual trait that must be demonstrated to exist in a given individual is a fixation you have, not me.

 

[Akka]

@akka I don't deal in 'racism accusations,' I already said everyone is racist (including me). "Racism accusations" and treating racism as an individual trait that must be demonstrated to exist in a given individual is a fixation you have, not me.

And yet you're the one bringing racism into each and every single discussion you partake. Guess I'm not the obsessed one.

Though, admitedly, it's actually somewhat relevant for this subject - a good deal of the immigration argument had some racism undertone, but I'd say it's actually rooted more in very different reasons, and only ending up as xenophobia because it's the most "accessible" outlet.
Being abandonned by the "elites", feeling ignored and put on the side (and I'd say the "racism"-obsessed mentality which automatically dismiss the plight of anyone who is a white male has some definite responsability on this one), fear toward unemployment and the future, are much more the root of the problems than anything else.
Backlash toward migrants can come from actual xenophobia (not even racism in fact, as it's mainly directed at eastern europeans in the UK, which are hardly a different "race"), nationalist feelings (shocking news, but there is actually people who are NOT from a "minority" and who actually HAVE pride in their culture, who would have known ?) and, in my mind the main reason, from fear and envy and the feeling of injustice which happens when someone is in a precarious condition in his home country and has this gut feeling that he should get help before foreigners.

As much as I mock the Brexit voters, I can definitely feel for the anger of the widening gap between rich and poor and the elites who ignore such complaints and continue to support a system which fails to deliver equality. My contempt is more about how they voted for the side which is actually the most prone to continue just that.