Is Civilization forever dead?

I feel like you can get that if you don't have the tall v wide constraint and resources are tuned differently in VI, without the auto-lose or "opponent who gets lucky spawn can force you to lose no matter what you do due to strat resource" type scenarios.
 
and I agree that no one wants to auto-win or lose on a start. Those tundra starts are what "reload map" were for - unless you felt like a real self-abusive challenge that is. and ok - some early game UU's were overpowered in 4.

but in the case of... the importance of finding/claiming/hooking up certain resources (or :eek: 3 of them adjacent!) on the map, or getting to units like axeman (as the first example) - ok the advantage could be slightly overpowered for a time - but that's what drove it. for me anyway. the "one more turn". The fact that there was a significant advantage that you could get for a while if you understood the game's mechanics and could pull it off.

That's what I hope for in VI.

Yep. Rolling with the punches, adapting to the situation and taking what the game gives you is fun and challenging. Makes for some awesome AARs, too.

I, too, hope for the same in CIV VI. :)
 
"streamlining" is not dumbing down. Not every player wants to play a game of civ with 1000 technologies, 4000 different units, on a map with 1000 0000 hexes, and having an empire of 13 000 cities, with 1700 different buildings to choose to build.

I'll settle for a Civ game where you can have more than 4-5 cities without it being crippling....
 
So money?

I dont buy games for how popular they are.

Fine its a buisness decsion.

Doesnt mean I will support it or excuse it.

Streamlining a game is not the same thing as simplifying it.

Civ IV's UI is more streamlined than V's for example. That's what needing half the inputs to accomplish the same task means.

It's simplifying the decision making process that harms the game, not making the gameplay flow better.

It's an important difference, the difference between needing to think or not versus the difference between three inputs and eight inputs.

It's ok to remove mundane tasks. Civ 3 and 4 both did so without catching much criticism or ill-effect.
 
I'll settle for a Civ game where you can have more than 4-5 cities without it being crippling....

Indeed. I think the idea of the 3 city "grand" empire in Civilization 5 came about because of constraints to the game engine. With the fancy graphics, we could see the game getting painfully bogged down even on medium sized maps. :sad:
So, they emphasized the beauty of small empires and pushed it as a feature. *Ugh* Thankfully, Mr. Beach isn't a fan of these 3-4 city empires. :goodjob:

With Civ VI, hopefully the new game engine will allow for truly huge maps to run well and for truly grand empires to emerge. :)
 
I saw Maddjinn win on Diety with about 25 or 30.

Maddjinn can win on deity while picking options he will readily admit are suboptimal in advance, including skipping over tradition and liberty and opening honor or piety.

That doesn't mean those choices are a good idea or the best choice, that means Maddjinn is cherry tapping.

Also, that many cities really isn't viable for most nations unless you have commerce finisher or ideologies, a timeframe where additional cities are unlikely to speed any victory condition except maybe allowing more units/staging locations for domination.
 
You can win on Deity with deleting your opening settler. Doesn't mean it's optimal.

MadDjinn plays very well, but he's not about trying to exploit unbalanced mechanics in the game. He doesn't steal workers, from what I remember.
 
You can win on Deity with deleting your opening settler. Doesn't mean it's optimal.

MadDjinn plays very well, but he's not about trying to exploit unbalanced mechanics in the game. He doesn't steal workers, from what I remember.

I don't want to misquote him, but my interpretation of the matter is that he didn't want to make the game easier.

There's no rational case you can make for blocking worker stealing but not warfare or research agreements or opening tradition. The cutoff point is necessarily arbitrary; the human can utilize all of these things better than the AI, and the AI will do any of them in at least a small percentage of cases.

But if you don't want to trivialize a given run, placing arbitrary restrictions on oneself is a reasonable course of action.
 
Streamlining a game is not the same thing as simplifying it.

Civ IV's UI is more streamlined than V's for example. That's what needing half the inputs to accomplish the same task means.

It's simplifying the decision making process that harms the game, not making the gameplay flow better.

It's an important difference, the difference between needing to think or not versus the difference between three inputs and eight inputs.

It's ok to remove mundane tasks. Civ 3 and 4 both did so without catching much criticism or ill-effect.

Here the thing.

In this day and age you can do both.

It called Options a little feature that been part of civ from the beginning really.

Just make a tick box. For those that don’t want to handle what you would call "mundane" tasks just add a option either to turn them off or hand them over to the AI.

Allow people to customize their own game.

Simple everyone’s happy then.
 
Just make a tick box. For those that don’t want to handle what you would call "mundane" tasks just add a option either to turn them off or hand them over to the AI.

Why put in development costs for mundane tasks in the first place?

Also stuff like civ V building interface is pure sloppy. They can do better and did do strictly better in civ IV. There is no "check box" that is reasonable for "sure, I'd like to click a few extra times to accomplish the exact same task with the exact same consequences". No, in those cases you just make the user use fewer inputs.

It's like saying right clicking to move units isn't necessary because you can use "go to". Actually, no, we don't need a check box for moving units with right click :p.
 
Why put in development costs for mundane tasks in the first place?

Also stuff like civ V building interface is pure sloppy. They can do better and did do strictly better in civ IV. There is no "check box" that is reasonable for "sure, I'd like to click a few extra times to accomplish the exact same task with the exact same consequences". No, in those cases you just make the user use fewer inputs.

It's like saying right clicking to move units isn't necessary because you can use "go to". Actually, no, we don't need a check box for moving units with right click :p.
What you’re talking about is improving the UI.

I’m 100% fine with that.

That is not removing or simplifying gameplay features just optimizing the user interface.
Making the city and unit building screens easier to access? Cool
Slashing the Tec and unit tree? No so cool.
Allowing easier relocation of resources and citizens? Cool
Removing the options to form my culture and government? Not so cool.
 
What you’re talking about is improving the UI.

I’m 100% fine with that.

That is not removing or simplifying gameplay features just optimizing the user interface.
Making the city and unit building screens easier to access? Cool
Slashing the Tec and unit tree? No so cool.
Allowing easier relocation of resources and citizens? Cool
Removing the options to form my culture and government? Not so cool.
The UI is a part of the game, and offers features that are integral to playing the game.
 
I agree with everything you wrote here (minus that specific Anno game that I've never heard of). I don't understand why, if people don't like the way Civ 6 is turning out and have vowed never to buy it (to the ridiculous point of threatening not to do so - which is clearly aimed at people who'll probably never come to these forums and read them), they continue to come here and disparage the game and antagonize the people who, at the very least, have a mild interest in it. I know I can't use the "T" word, but what else would you call it? Do they think, 5 months before release, the developers are going to come here, see the complaints/suggestions, and completely scrap what they've already done?

I love Civilization and I want each new iteration to be the best it can be. When it isn't, I'm disappointed. What's wrong with that?

I know that some people are opposed to any form of discord or disagreement. Personally, I cannot help but talk about and lament the general direction of gaming today. It is going through the same transition that other art forms have undergone as they transition from being niche to being mainstream/commercialized. There was a time when rock and roll war written, played, recorded and promoted by people who just desperately loved rock and roll. Those days are long gone, and the quality of most music today reflects that. You get less innovation and more 'easy to digest' offerings.

The same is true in gaming. 20 years ago, heck arguably just 10 years ago, gaming was still kind of a fringe activity (with regard to the wider culture..not economically). Now that gaming is a bigger industry than most (all?) other media outlets the activity and decisions of the major develops reflect this. The result? Less innovation, more 'easy to digest' offerings. For really interesting games one has to increasingly go off the beaten track, which is disappointing (since smaller developers generally don't have the budgets to do a 'proper' game any more).

To bring it back to Civ, I worry that people have forgotten what the whole point of the franchise was. It is not 'just a strategy game' with a historical backdrop, it was a game designed to be a sort of 'playable history' (albeit in very cartoony terms). What I mean by this is that in the past the history generally came first, and game mechanics were modeled, however loosely, around historical realities. Using slavery to rapidly build something killed a lot of slaves (for example). It was always imperfect and wildly abstracted, but the priority was some sort of vague relationship between our ideas of history and mechanics that might represent them.

The modern approach (and this is true of many games in general) seems to focus on mechanics first, and what might be termed 'colour' or 'theme' later (with Jon Shafer himself here it would be very interesting to hear a bit more about the creative process....I'd love to know if I 'm right about this, or if I'm totally off base!). There is no historical precedent that would lead one to create the city-state system whereby you give them money and you get a bonus in return. Likewise, the current system whereby there is no war weariness at all (so long as you don't take cities) is absurd. Nothing in history would support this. Your people only get angry if you start winning!? The point is not the desire for a pseudo-simulation a la EU4 (as much as I love EU), but rather some clearer relation between mechanics and what they are meant to represent.

I assure you, I'm not a troll. I just think it is good to talk about these sorts of trends and ruminate over them a bit. Is this the direction we want gaming to go in? Is it even possible to reverse the trend, given the staggering profits out there to be made? What does it mean for the future of gaming? The evolution of Civ from 4 to 6 (based on what very little we know about 6) is as good a case study as any.
 
It's like saying right clicking to move units isn't necessary because you can use "go to". Actually, no, we don't need a check box for moving units with right click :p.

"Go to" will forever remind me of holding right-click to order units around in Civ 2. Man, what a pain!

I tended to just use the number pad....
 
I can't decide if the worst of Civ 5s many UI flaws is that you dont get a visible sign to where a unit has a go to action when you select it. Or that there is no way to "push" units with qued up orders and then move the rest.
While 4 is of course older and has its flaws, in my opinion it seems they paid more attention to detail and user experience. I hope they pay a lot of attention to making a responsive and functioning UI this time.
 
Indeed. I think the idea of the 3 city "grand" empire in Civilization 5 came about because of constraints to the game engine. With the fancy graphics, we could see the game getting painfully bogged down even on medium sized maps. :sad:
So, they emphasized the beauty of small empires and pushed it as a feature. *Ugh* Thankfully, Mr. Beach isn't a fan of these 3-4 city empires. :goodjob:

With Civ VI, hopefully the new game engine will allow for truly huge maps to run well and for truly grand empires to emerge. :)
<<<<< Thormodr,

you nailed my very concern here. If the engine is NOT 64 bit then we will be stuck with the very same map sizes that restrict 'grand empires' down to 5 cities.
 
I wish people who don't like Civ5 would cut down with the hyperbole.

4 city tradition builds is a legitimate strategy and was very popular pre-Nerf, but I play exclusively on huge maps and there are more like 50-60 on the map. I routinely get 10-15 plus cities in total including my core. If I'm not going for culture and just want to play the good ole' osccilation war where I take a bite out of everyone.
'
You can't expect to keep posting unfounded comments like that and not expect to be called out on it.
 
I am currently in a huge game with over 35 cities at the moment. The main problem Dexters is the game is slowed down to a crawl. I am on turn 280 or so and I have fluttering, stuttering, Icons that disappear and other artifacts of memory cap issues.

Now, I absolutely love Civ 5, hands down. I am just frustrated by its performance on the largest maps with many civs, all of which could be addressed by having an engine that can utilize more memory.
 
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