Is Islam The Problem?

[Gary Childress]

Who?..

Sam Harris. He's a popular atheist "philosopher" and basically says what people who back the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan like to hear, that Islam is the most "dangerous" religion of all.

http://www.samharris.org/

 

[Bugfatty300]

He also says a lot of things that they don't want to hear.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

IMO all religion is a problem, but its just that extremists of this particular one are the ones currently blowing things up.

From what I can see, the primary driver is the use of a religion as a tool for power and control. Islam is the one that is most used today, but glancing over history suggests that if you indoctrinate people into a biased outlook that condones/rewards hate and murder, then you can continually propagate more people with a biased outlook that condones hate and murder.

From a governance standpoint, this is a pretty effective (though not so humane) method of controlling a populace. Islam is not alone in religious texts allowing for horrific crimes, but it's the one most-used for that purpose today.

If you compare terror incidents of Islamic states in various regions of the world, you get different results, and not just by a little. That's an important piece of evidence, and it suggests to me that serial indoctrination of people is the main issue, with religion being the front/tool to do it.

You basically have petty dictators running what are functionally modern day crusades, to similar usefulness.

 

[Berzerker]

Did you even read what I just posted? I know we have been talking past each other lately, but this is getting ridiculous. I just made an honest effort to not do so and it still happens.

Where is your honest effort? Where are these sweeping generalizations you've accused me of making? I keep asking and you keep dodging.

 

[Borachio]

Erm, no.

Well, that's just confusing.

So you don't believe in God but you still want her destroyed?

 

[brennan]

Islam isn't 'the' problem, nor is religion. The problem is superstition and insistence on belief in the ridiculous. Islam is currently just the most newsworthy example, but probably results in less deaths than e.g. the belief that homeopathy works.

 

[Yeekim]

It's not a problem with all of Islam, it's a problem with wahhabism.

This, I reckon.

However, the idea that there is something exceptional about Islam something hardwired into the religion that makes its followers dangerous and evil is something I take offense to.

The way I understand this, is that Muhammed had a rather reasonable/pragmatic approach to other religions, giving his disciples guidelines meant for both war (destroy the unbelievers, except if they surrender) and peace (keep peace, be respectful). The problem seems to be that in these days of globalization and without any central religious authority, one so disposed can nearly always make the case of there being war and thus wartime rules being applicable...

Do you think this make sense at all or am I completely mistaken here?

 

[Funky]

I am not one of those people that will say, leave Islam alone. However, the idea that there is something exceptional about Islam something hardwired into the religion that makes its followers dangerous and evil is something I take offense to.

First off, congrats on not belonging to the subset of Muslims who take their religion all too seriously. If most Muslims were like you, we probably wouldn't have much of a problem.
Unfortunately, hundreds of millions of Muslims view the Koran as a guide to live their life by, which leads to truly devastating outcomes for themselves, their families and their societies. You have presumably read the Koran and the hundreds of incitements of violence it contains. Would you not agree that when people take this book literally and use it as an instruction manual, that they can indeed become dangerous people?

 

[Borachio]

Islam isn't 'the' problem, nor is religion. The problem is superstition and insistence on belief in the ridiculous. Islam is currently just the most newsworthy example, but probably results in less deaths than e.g. the belief that homeopathy works.

You're joking right? Is homeopathy really that dangerous? It is mostly entirely just water. And small quantities of it, too.

Oh, but you mean the belief is dangerous, don't you?

I'd like to see some figures on this. On how many people die because they've rejected main-stream life-saving interventions in favour of homeopathy. I'd have thought that Jehovah's Witnessing was a lot more dangerous.

 

[Funky]

Sam Harris. He's a popular atheist "philosopher" and basically says what people who back the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan like to hear, that Islam is the most "dangerous" religion of all.

http://www.samharris.org/

Wow. Talk about smear. You are either completely unfamiliar with Sam Harris' work or you are intentionally slandering him. Either way, your words are totally off the mark.

 

[Arrow Gamer]

Re, thread title:

Yes.

 

[Formaldehyde]

To answer the thread title: no, and it's impressive how a handful of neocons can fool a bunch of people by just tacking on "I'm an atheist!" at the end.

Only they aren't really fooling anybody with rhetoric that is so similar to what comes out of the mouths of well-known Islamophobes like Geert Wilders, Sam Harris, and Pamela Geller on a regular basis.

Where is your honest effort?

As I already stated, my last post was indeed an honest effort to do so. I see the time was completely wasted as you continue to talk past me.

I think we are done here.

 

[brennan]

Belief in homeopathy never killed anyone, but people who urgently need serious medical intervention and think that homeopathy will do have a low survival rate. Because homeopathy is absolute bull.

Afaik nobody has ever compiled a set of figures on the matter, but it is easy to find examples of people who had terminal, treatable conditions who listened to quacks.

 

[Borachio]

Link to video.

Jainism isn't all that peaceful, in fact. There have been many Jain warriors.

The spirit of martialism in Jainism is manifest in its very own name (Jain meaning a conqueror), and the epithet accorded to the last Jain _tirthankar_ of our present yuga is Mahavir, i.e., the great hero.

In fact the first hero of Jaina lore, the greatest hero of all, and the first one to achieve moksa, according to certain Jaina traditions, is Bahubali (one with strong arms -- one of the many definitions of Bahubali).

The story of Bahubali, son of Rishabha, the first tirthankar, is told, among others, in Jinasena's _Adi-Purana_ where Jainism is described as a weapon of war (1.4), the various ascetic practices are compared to an army which conquers the enemy, karma (4.153 etc.), and the monk is instructed to abandon his body like that of an enemy on the battlefield (11.98) (see Paul Dundas, "Jain Digambar Warrior" (=DJW), in Carrithers and Humphreys, _Assembly of Listeners_ pp. 173-4).

http://itihaas.tripod.com/jainism/war.html
Neither are Quakers invariably pacifist.

it is easy to find examples of people who had terminal, treatable conditions who listened to quacks.

I don't deny it. But I think the numbers are very low. And not comparable with the numbers that have been slaughtered recently in Iraq, Syria, Nigeria, and elsewhere.

 

[Gary Childress]

Wow. Talk about smear. You are either completely unfamiliar with Sam Harris' work or you are intentionally slandering him. Either way, your words are totally off the mark.

What part of my statement is inaccurate? Does Harris not say Islam is the most dangerous religion? Do many who back the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan not think and like to hear that Islam is the most dangerous religion? Is he not an atheist? Please do enlighten.

 

[jackelgull]

First off, congrats on not belonging to the subset of Muslims who take their religion all too seriously. If most Muslims were like you, we probably wouldn't have much of a problem.
Unfortunately, hundreds of millions of Muslims view the Koran as a guide to live their life by, which leads to truly devastating outcomes for themselves, their families and their societies. You have presumably read the Koran and the hundreds of incitements of violence it contains. Would you not agree that when people take this book literally and use it as an instruction manual, that they can indeed become dangerous people?

Are you implying that I am a bad Muslim who doesn't listen to the Quran, that my faith is somehow weaker than those of others?

 

[Funky]

What part of my statement is inaccurate? Does Harris not say Islam is the most dangerous religion? Do many who back the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan not think and like to hear that Islam is the most dangerous religion? Is he not an atheist? Please do enlighten.

"Sam Harris (...) basically says what people who back the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan like to hear"

As if this played any role in Harris' thinking and writing. I hate to disappoint you but his views are not driven by a political agenda. He was opposed to the Iraq war. If anything he stands for liberal principles and the well-being of humans, including Muslims. How about you actually reading or watching some of the things he writes or says?

 

[Formaldehyde]

"On September 10, 2001, I went to sleep a white American. September 11th, I woke up an Arab. I woke up an outsider"


Link to video.


Link to video.

This poster is creating the illusion that Islam is an inherently violent religion. This is of course not true. More than 99% of the Muslims ignored the call to Islamic extremism by al-Qaida:

This is an actual poster than this hate group plastered all over the walls of the NYC subway system after 9/11.

 

[onejayhawk]

It's not a problem with all of Islam, it's a problem with wahhabism.

There is a great deal of justice in this.

I could support a war on wahhabism, but not on Islam in general. I think that is the choice presented to us at the moment. The practical distinctions are not trivial or even easy, but that is the challenge of this decade.

J

 

[Funky]

Are you implying that I am a bad Muslim who doesn't listen to the Quran, that my faith is somehow weaker than those of others?

I am implying that you don't take large parts of the Koran literally. Which is a good thing! And in a sense, yes, your faith is weaker than that of a suicide bomber who would go so far as to kill himself because he is convinced of the truthfulness of the doctrines of martyrdom and paradise. Which is also a good thing.