Is Isreal overacting?

[Fëanor]

The whole 3 of them? One of whom is a convicted murdered, the other a Lebanese Jew who spied for Hizballah and some other guy?

Officially after the attack they stated:
"Fulfilling its pledge to liberate the Arab prisoners and detainees, the Islamic Resistance captured two Israeli soldiers at the border with occupied Palestine"

That's the reason for the existance of the Hizballah? That's the reason for the existance of 15,000 missiles pointed at Israeli cities? That's the reason for dooming Beirut and Lebanon to destruction?

No, the reasons for the existance of Hizballah is the Israeli occupation of Lebanon, since then Hizballah has grown into far more complex group, with a Military arm and Civilian arm and a Political arm.

Im sure that the ammount of Missiles pointed at Israeli cities is even larger, if you include the arsenals from Syrian and Iranian ones of course.

The Reason for "dooming" Beirut and Lebanon is Israel ******** notion that collective punishment has positive effects, the only result from Israel's actions will be an increased support for Hizballah and Syria for the next decade(s)

 

[Sidhe]

Indeed religious and political issues are often not easy to seperate in an Islamic context, however every Muslim country in the ME is ruled by a theocratic government in one form or another. Their (Sharia) laws are derived directly from the Quran and their schooling institutions educate their students in accordance to the Quran. In essence, politics and religion in the Muslim World go hand in hand.
You are mistaken when you state that these Islamic fundamental "loud mouths" are no longer interested in their core tenants or purposly misquote the Quran; they are, in fact, the most pious and knowledgeable scholars of Islam. Do you believe yourself qualified and well-versed in the Quran to make that statement? If you truly take the time to learn the Quran you will come to understand it is the core Islamic tenants that are the root cause of the problems of the Muslim World and the crises we see today with Israel and Hezbollah.

Actually I was going by what liberal Muslims clerics said about the situation, the fact that fundementalists take the Koran out of context and use it to brainwash people into believing that Jihad is the first resort not the last. Since you are so knowledgeable I stand ready to recieve wisdom. Show me how the Koran tecaches it's followers to kill innocents, to commit suicide to war against other faiths? Show me how a suicide bomber is following the Korans message, show me where mohammed tells his people to sweep races into the sea to condone genocidal messages, show me how Islam is a violent religion? Say more so than Christianity. I tell you what I know a fair buit about Christianity, since it is responsible for more death in the world than any other religion I'll dig up all the passages that support Chrsits message as one of warfare and intolerance, ala fundementalist Christians and we can compare notes. Trouble is I think the same messages that jesus gives in the Christian bible are repeated in the Koran. This should be interesting, show me the texts?

 

[Fëanor]

Curious Fact about the Poll, the only 2 persons that have voted "I'm European, I think their action is justified" have listed their location as USA one and United Kingdom the other. Meaning that both should have voted in an other slot of the Poll, leaving the people that have voted "I'm European, I think their action is justified" to 0

 

[Gladi]

Curious Fact about the Poll, the only 2 persons that have voted "I'm European, I think their action is justified" have listed their location as USA one and United Kingdom the other. Meaning that both should have voted in an other slot of the Poll, leaving the people that have voted "I'm European, I think their action is justified" to 0

Brits are Euros too.
And I am somewhat close to "justified" were it not for no negotiations prior to campaign. At least pretense of it.

 

[Sidhe]

Brits are not Euros, we're on a different continent, how dare you

this is the US&Israel vs the rest of the world generally, reminds me of the last UN vote on a cease fire. Or the one on stoppping Israel from moving into the Gaza strip.

10 for 5 abstain 1 against-US D I know shocker) When was the last time the US admonished Israel for anything, it's chosen it's side and has no interest in the other atm. Sad state of affairs for the only country that could make a difference in the middle East but choses merely to escalate the problems. Business as Usual , after all it's worked in the past right? It wouldn't surprise me if the US decided to let Israel invade the Lebanon for the next year, trying fruitlessly to destroy Hezbollah while all the why it grows elsewhere.

 

[Winner]

My vote goes for "European - is is justified" option. At least somebody here has to stick to the ignored truth

 

[Sidhe]

My vote goes for "European - is is justified" option. At least somebody here has to stick to the ignored truth

Show us the truth oh wise one

 

[Winner]

Show us the truth oh wise one

I am not going to repeat this martyrdom again. Some people see what's obvious, and some do not. Let's just settle for that, OK?

(BTW, I am really ashamed by the stance of my fellow Europeans on this forum. Now I see why the Israelis don't trust us - we'd rather see them all being killed by Hezbollah terrorists, that admit they have a right to defend themselves. How humane we are )

 

[Gladi]

I am not going to repeat this martyrdom again. Some people see what's obvious, and some do not. Let's just settle for that, OK?

(BTW, I am really ashamed by the stance of my fellow Europeans on this forum. Now I see why the Israelis don't trust us - we'd rather see them all being killed by Hezbollah terrorists, that admit they have a right to defend themselves. How humane we are )

So we cannot say that this bombing campaign was foolish? Only way to deal with Hezbollah is ground invasion. And Israel could have at least shown a pretense of diplomacy. Then if all the "niceties" were followed I would go and demonstrate for our army to be deployed to help root the bastards (Hizbollah) out.

 

[Sidhe]

I am not going to repeat this martyrdom again. Some people see what's obvious, and some do not. Let's just settle for that, OK?

(BTW, I am really ashamed by the stance of my fellow Europeans on this forum. Now I see why the Israelis don't trust us - we'd rather see them all being killed by Hezbollah terrorists, that admit they have a right to defend themselves. How humane we are )

We fully support them killing Hezbolah Winner your not listening to what people are saying, it's the 300+ civillians, the mostly civillians thing we're against, I'm surprised you didn't get that. Israel is now moving a ground offensive in, let's hope they can actually hit some Hezbollah this time. Not that it matters this will achieve nothing anyway, same as it always does.

 

[Lotus49]

We fully support them killing Hezbolah Winner your not listening to what people are saying, it's the 300+ civillians, the mostly civillians thing we're against, I'm surprised you didn't get that. Israel is now moving a ground offensive in, let's hope they can actually hit some Hezbollah this time. Not that it matters this will achieve nothing anyway, same as it always does.

Well, when you figure out how to launch nanites into the air that seek out, target and kill only the correct personnel within the zone in question - you let us know.

'Til then, it's just human intel directing the old-fashioned 155mm shells and aerial bombs.

 

[Sidhe]

Well, when you figure out how to launch nanites into the air that seek out, target and kill only the correct personnel within the zone in question - you let us know.

'Til then, it's just human intel guiding the old-fashioned 155mm shells and aerial bombs.

Intelligence, what intelligence

 

[Princeps]

their lands were never stolen,

Of course they were.

Now they're stealing water from lebanon.

 

[Winner]

So we cannot say that this bombing campaign was foolish? Only way to deal with Hezbollah is ground invasion.

Which will start soon, as it appears. From some reason, I think that our local anti-israelis will yell even more.

And Israel could have at least shown a pretense of diplomacy. Then if all the "niceties" were followed I would go and demonstrate for our army to be deployed to help root the bastards (Hizbollah) out.

Diplomacy? In diplomacy, you have to have a partner for negotiations. But in this conflict, there is no other side. There is one democratic state which was attacked, and the terrorists who did it. In this case, no diplomacy is possible. Still, Israelis gave them time to return the captured soldiers. They refused and this is the result of their stuborness.

If you want to blame somebody, blame the terrorists, not Israel. Israel is doing only what it has to in order to remove Hezbollah threat.

 

[Gladi]

Diplomacy? In diplomacy, you have to have a partner for negotiations. But in this conflict, there is no other side. There is one democratic state which was attacked, and the terrorists who did it. In this case, no diplomacy is possible. Still, Israelis gave them time to return the captured soldiers. They refused and this is the result of their stuborness.

If you want to blame somebody, blame the terrorists, not Israel. Israel is doing only what it has to in order to remove Hezbollah threat.

You know they could have send envoys to Beirut. The demands for allowance to crackdown on Hizbollah rejected- bullet-proof casus belli. Not rejected (as unlikely as it is) legality and tacit support of Lebanon.

 

[Winner]

We fully support them killing Hezbolah Winner your not listening to what people are saying, it's the 300+ civillians, the mostly civillians thing we're against, I'm surprised you didn't get that.

That is what I called hypocrisy, before I get banned for it (obviously, I don't even have a right to use perfectly suitable word for a situation, when certain people ignore one part of the reality and complain about the other).

I know you're concerned about civilian casaulties. That's nice, really, I admire it. The problem is this casaulties are not avoidable. Israeli airforce needs to remove Hezbollahs buildings, camps and leaders inside Lebanon, and because Hezbollah is traditionally using Lebanese civilians as shields, innocent civilians will die, no matter what. Once again, don't blame Israelis, blame Hezbollah.

My impression is that we both agree that a fire on the roof has to be extinguished, but you refuse to use water, because it could damage the the storey beneath. As a result, the fire will not only destroy the roof, but it will also consume the rest of the house.

Israel is now moving a ground offensive in, let's hope they can actually hit some Hezbollah this time. Not that it matters this will achieve nothing anyway, same as it always does.

So that's why Israel shouldn't do anything and die, right?

 

[Gladi]

My impression is that we both agree that a fire on the roof has to be extinguished, but you refuse to use water, because it could damage the the storey beneath. As a result, the fire will not only destroy the roof, but it will also consume the rest of the house.

Better would be to say that we see a chemical part of the fire and that your water will not acomplish anything ant that foam will have to be used anyway so why spread damage now.

 

[Sidhe]

That is what I called hypocrisy, before I get banned for it (obviously, I don't even have a right to use perfectly suitable word for a situation, when certain people ignore one part of the reality and complain about the other).

I know you're concerned about civilian casaulties. That's nice, really, I admire it. The problem is this casaulties are not avoidable. Israeli airforce needs to remove Hezbollahs buildings, camps and leaders inside Lebanon, and because Hezbollah is traditionally using Lebanese civilians as shields, innocent civilians will die, no matter what. Once again, don't blame Israelis, blame Hezbollah.

My impression is that we both agree that a fire on the roof has to be extinguished, but you refuse to use water, because it could damage the the storey beneath. As a result, the fire will not only destroy the roof, but it will also consume the rest of the house.



So that's why Israel shouldn't do anything and die, right?

I stand for peace, I have heard conadaleeza rice say this war will rearrange the borders of the middle East and all sorts of nonsense rhetoric coming from the American government, they are deluding themselves into thinking this will solve anything, just like it hasn't for the last 50 years. I believe like the UN that all this is doing is stirring up hatred and must be stopped ASAP. Let's get back to trying to find peaceful means to solve this situation, war has been shown time and time again to achieve precisely nothing, what makes you think it's all suddenly going to change out there? Blind hope?

 

[Lotus49]

I stand for peace, I have heard conadaleeza rice say this war will rearrange the borders of the middle East and all sorts of nonsense rhetoric coming from the American government, they are deluding themselves into thinking this will solve anything, just like it hasn't for the last 50 years. I believe like the UN that all this is doing is stirring up hatred and must be stopped ASAP. Let's get back to trying to find peaceful means to solve this situation, war has been shown time and time again to achieve precisely nothing, what makes you think it's all suddenly going to change out there? Blind hope?

"Blind hope" - is "deluding" one's self into seeking "peace" with terrorists.

 

[Sidhe]

"Blind hope" - is "deluding" one's self into seeking "peace" with terrorists.

Peace will come between governments not terrorists, what are you talking about?