Is it better to chop or keep forests?

ProbStat said:
All right, I figured out how to fix my problem. Anyone else who runs into it (and who doesn't want to continue to benefit from the ill-gotten benefit of the bug ...) can find my correction here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4490594#post4490594


I am fairly certain you just handicapped yourself versus fixed a bug. The hammers received for a pre-Math chop, with no other modifiers should be 20 on NORMAL speed and 60 on MARATHON. If you were playing marathon games, then this explains your perceived "problem."
 
I never use lumbermills. I never build them. I only build workshops.

Workshops + the techs you need to get +1 hammer + state property = a pretty good tile.

I chop if I need to. If I'm behind, I'll chop to get a wonder/worker/settler going. Otherwise, they're good tiles until you can build workshops.
 
dalessi12 said:
I am fairly certain you just handicapped yourself versus fixed a bug. The hammers received for a pre-Math chop, with no other modifiers should be 20 on NORMAL speed and 60 on MARATHON. If you were playing marathon games, then this explains your perceived "problem."

You are absolutely correct, dalessi. My change has made the resource bonus in a normal speed game 6 hammers. I might just have to build a Wonder or something ...

Thanks for the info.
 
Forest+river+lumber mill+railroad.

sometimes the eventual outcome puts me off from chopping river forests, u can earn some good hammer and commerce from that tile.
 
I guess I suck, because I need to chop to win.

  • All forests adjacent to my cities get chopped for military reasons.
  • All forests next to a river get chopped. By the time I'm building lumbermills, the outcome of the game is already decided. I've either got the tech lead thanks to those cottages I built, or I'm in big trouble (and a lumbermill isn't what I need to bail me out.)
  • All forests on hills get chopped. I'd rather have a mine now, or a windmill now, than a lumbermill later. See above.
  • Settlers, workers, wonders, and sometimes military units should be chopped early on. If you can afford to sit around and wait for them to be produced normally, you're probably not playing on a skill level with enough challenge. An axeman who gets chopped early in the game and wins you an extra city, or protects a copper mine from a raider, is infinitely more valuable than some late-game lumbermill with railroads. It's not even remotely close.

The only forests I keep in my fat cross are one square removed from my city, not adjacent to a river, and not on a hill. I'm not sure how you could compete on Monarch+ any other way.

Edited for formatting.
 
20 or 30 hammers at the beginning of the game is a huge huge bonus when you consider that most cities are only producing 4 or 5. Give me the extra Axemen, Immortals, Praetorians or War Chariots and I'll cripple a nearby AI by taking a couple of his first cities while at the same time adding to my own strength. Extra credit for reduced diplomatic penalties since not all AIs will have met each other and many won't have a religion yet.
 
i play at prince level. that enviromentalism in warlords is better revised than vanilla, what with any forest or jungle in your TERRITORY rather than the fat cross, giving the extra happiness. a lot of my recent custom games have had me start on continents with little or no happy bonuses. damn map scripts. grrrr
 
I try not to chop before Mathematics. The exceptions are if I want to work the tile right away (mine a hill, cottage a river-grassland) or if it feels particularly urgent, e.g. I'm under attack or afraid I'll lose a Wonder race. After Mathematics the axes come out. I only save tiles for lumbermills if the city is really hurting for production. Or sometimes late founded/captured cities.

peace,
lilnev
 
I chop everything. Simple as that.
My workers build farms and mines first. Then, if they run out of things to do (or if I want to have that library/obelisk/barracks) REALLY fast, they start chopping everything in sight. Sometimes I even chop forests next to enemy cities, before they border expand :D

Cities that are weak on production get a lighthouse or granary or library and workshops and farms.

Mathematics is nice, but most of the time, I want that extra production ASAP.
 
The biggest drawback of early chopping is that you need forest to grow more forests on adjacent tiles. That is why I postpone chopping a bit.

Do's:
-chop because I want a better improvement on the tile
-chop because I want to hurry a wonder

Don'ts:
-chop because I want to hurry the production of a unit
 
Andraeianus I said:
The biggest drawback of early chopping is that you need forest to grow more forests on adjacent tiles. That is why I postpone chopping a bit.

In order to maximise the chance of forest regrowth, I should think one would want to chop as close to a "checkerboard" pattern as feasible.

Don'ts:
-chop because I want to hurry the production of a unit


Except for early workers and settlers, so you can expand your territory and workforce without sacrificing more city growth than necessary. Well, maybe not on starts where food resources are superabundant.
 
Salve!

I did quite a search by now but didn't find what I was looking for. Although its about chopping in this thread I'll give my question to 'regrowing' a starter in here :).

Has anyone calculated (if the game has a formula for regrowing) the chances for regrowing of forests/jungle? E.g. 5% if there is one adjacent forest tile, 8% if there are two etc.?

Thx!
 
The probability of growth is linear with the number of adjascent, unimproved forests. It looks to me as though it comes to 0.1% per neighboring forest per turn - half that if the targeted tile has a route on it. See CvPlot::doFeature

Jungle regrows twice as quickly (the iChange value defined in CIV4FeatureInfos.xml is 16, rather than 8).
 
Only forest I don't chop is forest on tundra or ice land.

The higher difficulty you go the more chopping you need to do. Playing on huge map and deity, I need often need 4 workers to chop non stop as soon as possible just to survive the early stage.
 
By default forests should always be chopped.

Common rebuttals:
-Lumbermill FTW!: The lumbermill comes rather late in the game. Not only are the hammers worth less, but there's no guarantee that the game will even go that long. They're nice, to be sure, but they're not a reason on their own to save forests.
-Wait till math: I used to think this too, but under scrutiny, it doesn't really hold water. Just like how hammers in the early game are worth more than in the late game, hammers in the very early game are worth more than in the middle game. I would wait at most 8 turns on normal to chop a forest waiting on math, but more than that, and you're seriously stunting your growth.


Legitimate reasons to chop:
-Civ is an exponential game, in that early resources more than pay for themselves given time. An extra early axeman becomes an extra early captured city becomes a number of extra mid-game catapults. Same goes for wonders. The earlier the returns, the better.
-Forests adjacent to the city (or important resources) give enemy units refuge during an invasion or siege. Militarily, it's often best to clear the way.
-Forests stifle resources: river commerce, mine resource discoveries, and even forest regrowths.

Legitimate reasons not to chop:
-Low on worker turns. It's generally best to consider what's best for the empire rather than what's best for the city. Sometimes, your workers have significantly more important things to do, like hooking up resources or connecting a military road network. Generally, you'll want to chop more workers, but this isn't always the case. If a city is low on forests, you won't always have worker-turns available to improve tiles to replace them after chopping them.
-Tile placement. Health is overrated, but sometimes it's important to offset floodplains. Generally city placement should avoid excessive bad health, but leaving the forest to offset excessive bad health is a very legitimate option. Also, plains tiles tend to be worthless for some time unless adjacent to a river, so having those available as 1F2H outs when, again, you're short on worker turns, isn't a bad idea. Forests on tundra as well.
-Emphasis on commerce over hammers. Once again we return to worker-turn priority. If an extra axeman won't help you because you're already paying your army through the nose and your $$$ is so backwards you can't pick up any good economic wonders (or a market or library), sometimes a city will be better off growing on its own while your workers cottage up some other city. A city surrounded by grass forests will flourish on its own just fine without worker help.
-Military defense. If you're facing down a mounted assault, forests can help reclaim your road-movement advantage. I've generally only found this to be true on small fronts.
-No bronzeworking. If for some strange reason, your game doesn't require you to pick up slavery to rush a wonder, get forest chopping to speed development, or find copper in hopes of building axemen or spearmen, then sure, I suppose you could hold on bronzeworking past the time when mass-chopping would pay for itself.


Neat tip: We're all used to telling our workers to chop and then improve the tile, to get the hammers earlier. However, if a city is working a forest you want to chop, it's not a bad idea to tell the worker to just build the improvement. The forest will stay and be worked all the way up until the improvement finishes to replace it.
 
I strategize when chopping forests:

* Tundra: Never chop it unless (a) it's next to fresh water and I feel it would be better use for another improvement or (b) it's a tile not in any city's radius.

* Plains: Always chop unless the city is low on production squares.

* Grassland: Depends on what I want out of the city. If I want growth, chop it for a forest. If I want commerce, chop it for a cottage. If I want production, determine what production improvement is best for the tile or if leaving the forest alone until lumbermills come along is better.

And when I do chop, I wait until I'm building something such as a wonder or a building that requires a long production time (cathedrals are a good example). For military units, since I build them in mostly high production cities, chopping generally ends up being trivial in terms of speeding the production of them unless I'm playing at Marathon.
 
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