Is Whip/Chop overflow an Exploit? I say No

[Lone Wolf]

And was TMIT right in saying earlier that it doesn't change anything about civics (or does, but not in the expected way?)

I don't understand what you are talking about. If you are talking about the bug where a leader running a favourite civic refused to allow you to ask him to change other civics also (Elizabeth running FR refused to change from Mercantilism to Free Market because "that would go against everything we stand for", for example), then that bug had been fixed.

I thought it made some significant changes as to how the AI waged war?

Sure, the AI is now a bit smarter when deploring troops, naval invasions in particular. What exactly does it have to do with AI's personality? There is no iAIWarStupidity parameter in the files describing the AI's personalities.

Anyway, I support a comparison game between someone who uses that overflow manoeuvre and some who doesn't. Bring it on.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Has been fixed in the unofficial patch if I'm correct

Perhaps you should try one day to play with these TMIT?

It's a lot more concrete than "one day".

It's "one day when I have a computer with more than 512 MB of RAM".

Better AI and especially bug slow me down a lot. I should have another gander at the unofficial patch, although that screws with the rare occasions I play MP.

 

[Crusher1]

Finally, if you really want to prove that your point is valid and I am wrong. I shadowed Pauliskhan's Team101 game a few weeks ago. Cathy/Emperor (a leader can use your trick and a level you'll feel more than comfortable). In that game, I settled cities in a slow rate and I only settled 12 cities in 1000AD. There's room for you to settle more than 16 cities. Use your superior trick to rex to extreme to work the most tiles and post a save of 1000AD to show me how superior empire you can develop using your superior trick.
Edit: I used and saved those forests for wonders in that game, which was mentioned in my last post.

Funny ^^. I looked at the map and it isn't a whip/chop map because the starting position is boxed in by 2 close neighbors and water on 2 sides, too much jungle, and Stone which dramatically changes the game by allowing for the fastest early teching possible - rep scientist.

I may still do it just out of neutrality and in the spirit of seeing how things work out, but still, the technique will not work well with the scenario you provided. After all, rep scientist power research to Currency w/out the need for overflow and IMP still lets you keep up in settler production while getting wonders.

When you get a map with no stone , less jungle, and not boxed in I'd be more willing.

 

[Lone Wolf]

It's "one day when I have a computer with more than 512 MB of RAM".

I've got 512 MB RAM too, and BetterAI isn't slow for me. Mind you, I received regular MAF's on saving 'till I increased my paging file.

 

[Jaroth]

Official Patch 3.19

Oh... look what's included in there:

"Build-specific production modifiers are no longer counted for overflow gold calculations"

Hmm... looks like it WAS a bug being exploited afterall; even the developers thought so.

Honestly, did anybody think otherwise?

 

[Gliese 581]

Also in the notes from that link:

- Fixed a few AI civic evaluation bugs

- AI changes civics during Golden Ages



- Re-enabled Foreign Advisor "Glance" screen

Wow, that only took you 200 years to realise.

- Collateral damage modifiers, collateral damage immunity, and air defense modifiers, multiply instead of add

It's like they've been reading everything we've been discussing lately.

Too bad nothing has been done about vassals and hidden diplo status but a great list of changes nonetheless.

 

[r_rolo1]

I still think it is double standart, since the wonder consolation cash is not cut down like that But anyway, it only took 2 years, 1 expansion and 9 released patches to change this

 

[Earthling]

Well, again, rather than see wonder consolation cash cut down I'd rather just see straight out building wealth, cutlure etc... be doubled. These can't be affected by building multipliers anyway (well, the hammer multipliers but not the multiplier for what is being built). If wealth was just 2 to 1 this whole time I'd be very happy, but still, I was quite surprised by the new patch, very interesting.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Oooh, I'm happy!

It looks like they fixed the "self-close" bug, civic bribes, and FINALLY the spread culture mission works again!

Edit: Is that what I think it is?! No more hibernating AP?!

The overflow removal was worth this.

 

[Frodius]

I blame Crusher1's fanatical zeal for ruining all of my whip/chop overflow fun.

This also pretty much cements the protective trait as flatly worse than the other traits for most SP situations, at least for a monarch level player such as myself.

 

[Hereditary Rule]

So I guess a mod should change the thread title to,

"Is Whip/Chop overflow an Exploit? Firaxis says yes"

I wish they'd have patched something small to boost protective in light of this. Half priced Security Bureaus? Hey, it's late but at least it doesn't obsolete.

 

[r_rolo1]

So I guess a mod should change the thread title to,

"Is Whip/Chop overflow an Exploit? Firaxis says yes"

Let's just hope that Firaxis have not made another "barrage-like" thing :

OT4E from civfanatics.ru has tested the patch and found ZERO gold overflow (pop-rushed and 10-forest chopped a theatre with Creative leader).

With some luck it was just defective testing

 

[Duckweed]

Funny ^^. I looked at the map and it isn't a whip/chop map because the starting position is boxed in by 2 close neighbors and water on 2 sides, too much jungle, and Stone which dramatically changes the game by allowing for the fastest early teching possible - rep scientist.

I may still do it just out of neutrality and in the spirit of seeing how things work out, but still, the technique will not work well with the scenario you provided. After all, rep scientist power research to Currency w/out the need for overflow and IMP still lets you keep up in settler production while getting wonders.

When you get a map with no stone , less jungle, and not boxed in I'd be more willing.

If I understood your post correctly, by saying this, you now confess that your trick is NOT SUPERIOR at least under some circumstances (And I mentioned that in many situations your trick is a suboptimal way to play the game)-- in this map you DO care about the stone which can support a wonder economy, so stone IS important whether you are going to use the trick or not. Isn't this a counter point to your own previous statements, where you don't care about stone at all.

2. Who's talking about stone?

Stone is actually inferior and is no way shape or form the best application "while you are teching towards math". The reason is obvious. It takes much longer to actually discover Math and then you are left with a rather useless building.

Moreover, there are more than 20 forests to be chopped just in capital, western Horse/cow, northern fur/Incense, and eastern Fish/horse site. I could not imagine you need more than 20 forests to support your trick! This map is one of the easy map that everyone in your level can easily settle more than 10 cities before 1AD and you called cathy boxed.

Edit: Indeed, the argue should be over now since the coming 3.19 patch will remove this, and from the beginning I always consider this trick is nothing about SUPERIOR with so many drawbacks and limited usage.

 

[Guardian_PL]

With some luck it was just defective testing

Nnnnope Finally. Patch 3.19 is on, and no more multiplier bonuses for the overflow gold. No more excuses for cheesy exploits. Good job Firaxis, you're THE only gaming company I trust.

And I'm sorry to say that, but (like on Family Guy when Peter gets exam results that he's not a genius, but a ******) IN YOUR FACE! HA! IN YOUR FACE! Yeah, I'm nasty, but I had to say it

 

[DampRain]

Nnnnope Finally. Patch 3.19 is on, and no more multiplier bonuses for the overflow gold. No more excuses for cheesy exploits. Good job Firaxis, you're THE only gaming company I trust.

And I'm sorry to say that, but (like on Family Guy when Peter gets exam results that he's not a genius, but a ******) IN YOUR FACE! HA! IN YOUR FACE! Yeah, I'm nasty, but I had to say it

Thats actually bad, they didn't just not get the multipliers for gold, they got NO gold at all. So that was like, 280 wasted hammers that have disappeared?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Nnnnope Finally. Patch 3.19 is on, and no more multiplier bonuses for the overflow gold. No more excuses for cheesy exploits. Good job Firaxis, you're THE only gaming company I trust.

And I'm sorry to say that, but (like on Family Guy when Peter gets exam results that he's not a genius, but a ******) IN YOUR FACE! HA! IN YOUR FACE! Yeah, I'm nasty, but I had to say it

Now now, we still have the Apostolic Palace...

 

[r_rolo1]

Nnnnope Finally. Patch 3.19 is on, and no more multiplier bonuses for the overflow gold. No more excuses for cheesy exploits. Good job Firaxis, you're THE only gaming company I trust.

And I'm sorry to say that, but (like on Family Guy when Peter gets exam results that he's not a genius, but a ******) IN YOUR FACE! HA! IN YOUR FACE! Yeah, I'm nasty, but I had to say it

I don't think you understood my point. Getting 0 gold in that situation I quoted from lexad isn't what it is supposed to happen in 3.19 acording with the changelog. The gold obtained in that situation should be the overflow hammers traded at wealth ratio ( 1 hammer = 1 gold ).....

 

[Ghpstage]

Anyone else wondering what Crusher's response will be?

 

[Dirk1302]

Well i guess i never get to use the technique/trick/exploit now. Still amazed at the fierceness displayed in some of the posts here , it wasn't such a big deal after all.

Ultimately i think it's a good thing it has been nerved. For one it feels a bit unnatural, it also involves some boring micro. And while i'm sure this isn't a gamebreaker on deity it could indeed be too good on immortal and below.Being able to rex to 15 cities early without any penalty/restraint is very strong.

^I am also a bit curious as to Crusher's response .

 

[vale]

With some luck it was just defective testing

Doesn't sound like there was anything wrong with the test. Where do you see this post?