Israel invades Gaza

[Cato the Elder]

To the pro-Israeli camp, don't you realise that this will have the radical opposite effect?

Palestinians, of all ages, have seen their villages, towns, cities, first bombed, and now invaded. That kind of violence leaves a lasting impression on anyone, and the moment they see Israeli tanks roll into the place where they grew up, they lived, they loved, it'll stay ingrained in their memory forever. And the result of this, it won't be pretty.

There are plenty of WWII veterans here, that still hate the Germans even though the war's been over for more than 60 years. These Palestinians, who see the Israelis as invaders, not liberators of any sort, will also hate likewise. And even if Israeli forces manage to obliberate Hamas, some new organisation will pop up in 5, 10 years' time, and be even more violent and fanatical than Hamas.

The Palestinians aren't going to be subdued like this. The Israelis currently have two choices: occupy and opress, or be prepared for even bigger terrorist strikes in the surprisingly near future.

 

[Winner]

"Quantity Has A Quality All Its Own"

i think in the end , it would boil down to who has the better leadership.

Well, since Israel is now stronger than it was in 1967 when it defeated Egypt, Syria and Jordan in 6 days, I guess the chances of a successful Syrian attack are pretty dim.

 

[Gogf]

There are plenty of WWII veterans here, that still hate the Germans even though the war's been over for more than 60 years.

That's not a reasonable parallel. Germany attacked Belgium completely unprovoked, but Hamas has been murdering Israeli civilians for years.

 

[DNK]

this isnt some sports event, guys.

And you thought bloodsports died with the Romans

Gladiator games, televised war, whatever it's all spectacle now.

 

[silver 2039]

Lets hope Israel does it properly and comprehensively this time.

 

[Winner]

To the pro-Israeli camp, don't you realise that this will have the radical opposite effect?

Palestinians, of all ages, have seen their villages, towns, cities, first bombed, and now invaded. That kind of violence leaves a lasting impression on anyone, and the moment they see Israeli tanks roll into the place where they grew up, they lived, they loved, it'll stay ingrained in their memory forever. And the result of this, it won't be pretty.

There are plenty of WWII veterans here, that still hate the Germans even though the war's been over for more than 60 years.

Thanks for bringing this up. Germans were defeated by the Allies, their cities were turned into rubble and millions of them died in the war they started.

Look at them now - they're rich, they're respected by fellow Europeans, they are the unspoken leader of the EU. Do you think they'd be better of now if the Allies had just signed peace with the Nazis after the liberation of France and Poland? If the Allies hadn't finished what they started and hadn't crushed the fanatical and genocidal organization (NSDAP), if they hadn't occupied Germany and punish the criminals, Germany would be just as wretched and miserable place as the Palestinian territories.

So, if the Palestinians really need something, it's the sort of crushing defeat in an all-out war that Germans got 63 years ago.

These Palestinians, who see the Israelis as invaders, not liberators of any sort, will also hate likewise. And even if Israeli forces manage to obliberate Hamas, some new organisation will pop up in 5, 10 years' time, and be even more violent and fanatical than Hamas.

The Palestinians aren't going to be subdued like this. The Israelis currently have two choices: occupy and opress, or be prepared for even bigger terrorist strikes in the surprisingly near future.

The same old story, you people are like a broken record. You've been telling this for a decade without even a hint of what should the Israelis do instead - lay down and die, I suppose? Or pack up and leave? Oh right.

The goal here is to cripple the terrorists. The wall stopped them from infiltrating Israel with suicide bombers, now something must be done about the missile strikes.

Palies won't like this, but they only got what they wanted. Will they hate Israel even more after this? No, they already hate it completely, that's why they elected Hamas to lead them.

 

[Gogf]

By the way, I'm curious what other countries shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves when armed groups launch attacks on their civilians.

 

[Cato the Elder]

That's not a reasonable parallel. Germany attacked Belgium completely unprovoked, but Hamas has been murdering Israeli civilians for years.

Palestinians view Hamas as a resistance force, and even though I'm certain many don't agree with their methods, they believe it is the only way to advance their cause and not spend life under the Israeli fist. Palestinians view the whole entire conflict of the past 50 years or so as an invasion, an opression, and the fault of the Israelis. And until one adresses this, nothing is ever going to change.

I do not agree with the Palestinian mindset, neither do I with the Israeli that they are "simply defending themselves against terrorism". However, staging a full-fledged invasion is only going to make things worse. And in the end, the land was originally Palestinian, unless we go back millennia. So therefore, the Israelis should drop the whole entire "we won't negotiate with terrorists" bit, and negotiate with the Palestinians, no matter what their affiliation. Look for a decent compromise, and finally get this over with.

(note: the past ceasefire was not a decent compromise, otherwise there wouldn't have been any rockets fired at Israel)

 

[Gogf]

The other thing that a lot of people are missing here is that the Palestinian people have essentially consenting to this invasion. They elected Hamas as their government, knowing full well exactly what Hamas is and does. Hamas is the government of the Gaza strip, and Israel has every right to treat it like a foreign military. While I agree that Israel should try to minimize civilian casualties out of a respect for the sanctity of life, we need to keep some perspective here.

 

[holy king]

Thanks for bringing this up. Germans were defeated by the Allies, their cities were turned into rubble and millions of them died in the war they started.

Look at them now - they're rich, they're respected by fellow Europeans, they are the unspoken leader of the EU. Do you think they'd be better of now if the Allies had just signed peace with the Nazis after the liberation of France and Poland? If the Allies hadn't finished what they started and hadn't crushed the fanatical and genocidal organization (NSDAP), if they hadn't occupied Germany and punish the criminals, Germany would be just as wretched and miserable place as the Palestinian territories.

So, if the Palestinians really need something, it's the sort of crushing defeat in an all-out war that Germans got 63 years ago.

the allies also didnt build a wall around germany and left them to die of hunger and disease in there.

 

[Gogf]

Palestinians view Hamas as a resistance force, and even though I'm certain many don't agree with their methods, they believe it is the only way to advance their cause and not spend life under the Israeli fist. Palestinians view the whole entire conflict of the past 50 years or so as an invasion, an opression, and the fault of the Israelis. And until one adresses this, nothing is ever going to change.

I do not agree with the Palestinian mindset, neither do I with the Israeli that they are "simply defending themselves against terrorism". However, staging a full-fledged invasion is only going to make things worse. And in the end, the land was originally Palestinian, unless we go back millennia. So therefore, the Israelis should drop the whole entire "we won't negotiate with terrorists" bit, and negotiate with the Palestinians, no matter what their affiliation. Look for a decent compromise, and finally get this over with.

See, this is what I don't understand. How can people say so much and yet know so little? Of course Israel negotiates with the Palestinians. Israel offered Yasser Arafat more than 98% of the land he asked for. Arafat refused and started the Second Intifada.

(note: the past ceasefire was not a decent compromise, otherwise there wouldn't have been any rockets fired at Israel)

Of course it wasn't acceptable to Hamas. No compromise will ever be acceptable to Hamas unless that compromise does not include an Israeli state, because the stated goal of Hamas is and always has been the destruction of Israel, not the "liberation" of the Palestinians. This is not a group that can be negotiated with.

 

[Gogf]

the allies also didnt build a wall around germany and left them to die of hunger and disease in there.

And the Israelis haven't done that to the Palestinians either, so I fail to see the relevance of this statement. Before the invasion, the World Food Program stopped delivering food to Gaza because the warehouses there were already full. The international community is sending free food to Gaza with Israel's approval. If people are starving, it's not because there's not enough food in Gaza, it's because Hamas is not distributing it. Why is Hamas not distributing the food? Are they perhaps too busy trying to kill Israeli civilians?

 

[Winner]

the allies also didnt build a wall around germany and left them to die of hunger and disease in there.

That might have had something to do with the fact that Germans didn't start an insurgency against the Allied forces (as Adolf had planned) and instead cooperated with the Allies.

Palestinians prefer to wage a perpetual terrorist campaign, so this is the result. Israel should keep bombing them until they realize that.

 

[T.A JONES]

Hmm I hope this dosn' t esculates into another masacre but then again. IM invested heavily in Euros at the moment. Crap thing is I get paid in CDN : (

More anti Isreal/AMerica sentiments would strengthen the resolve for the continued abandoning of the US dollar peg on Middleast foreign export of oil. Instead adaption of the stronger Euro as a sub has taken place but not near as much as is needed for Euro to rise as drasticly as it did in 2003
Islam nations have threatened this for a while and Iran is already doing it but you really need them to get big hate on to pull off a timly transition . You know, Just like when saddam got his ass bombed by Clinton. Right there that was enough for him to go Euro and some members of the EU to grudgingly support it

When US invaded to revert the damage he had done, IMF predicted imminate threat of dollar collapse only monthes after the Euro for oil, the real WMD, they killed enough Islams to send a good message what tampering with their fiat pillars will bring.
Yet It stopped the Euros rises only briefly. Iran took on the same tactic agaist US hedgemony and the Euro took off and again the world waited for US to invade after it spinned another terrorist WMD tale for the nlinded US public to buy

. Infact the very week The euro was allowed to buy oil it has always been king. The Big Euro banks are rubbin their hands greedily while Euro backers are crossing their fingers at the moment

Comon boys go get em!!

 

[Cato the Elder]

Gogf - there's more to it than land you know. Did the accords also include the Palestinian right to sovereignity, or would they be forced to remain a vassal of Israel? Did it include complete right to return? If Yasser Arafat stepped into these talks in the first place, he must've done it with the idea of actually finding peace and compromise. I don't think he would've started just to suddenly say "lol soz guys israel sux bai"

Also, if Hamas is so hell-bent on pure destruction, why did they give support for the Arab Peace Initiative?

Oh, and also, we can impossibly compare contemporary Palestine and the Germany of the late '30s. The latter was infinitely more powerful and influential than the former could ever hope to be.

 

[Winner]

Also, if Hamas is so hell-bent on pure destruction, why did they give support for the Arab Peace Initiative?

PR stunt. They haven't changed their Charter in which they promise to destroy Israel and reclaim WHOLE Palestine for the Arabs.

Oh, and also, we can impossibly compare contemporary Palestine and the Germany of the late '30s. The latter was infinitely more powerful and influential than the former could ever hope to be.

Why did you do it, then?

We can compare the situation in principle. And it's not just Germany, Japan is much better example - suicide bombers (kamikaze), the stubborn resistance when the war was clearly lost, the promises to fight to the very last toddler etc. It turned out that the Americans just had to use more violence to bring them to reason - and it actually helped Japan.

So, Israel needs to use more violence, not less to end this conflict.

 

[Gogf]

Yes. Israel offered the Palestinians a state, but they rejected it. I don't know why Arafat entered the peace negotiations, but it definitely wasn't to find a peaceful settlement. It probably had something to do with trying to maintain the bizarre international support he enjoys. Arafat was a terrorist, and no peaceful resolution to this conflict was ever going to happen while he was alive. Fatah is a much more moderate organization now that he's dead, and that's who the Israelis are now able to deal with.

 

[silver 2039]

The convenient part is that ever since the civil war Hamas has been restrained to the Gaza strip, making it much easier for them to be rooted out. Notice also how these things aren't happening to the West Bank.

 

[Gogf]

The convenient part is that ever since the civil war Hamas has been restrained to the Gaza strip, making it much easier for them to be rooted out. Notice also how these things aren't happening to the West Bank.

Uh... not so much. Hamas remains a force in the West Bank. The reason this isn't happening there is that Fatah (with Israeli help) is still in control of that area.

 

[Cato the Elder]

PR stunt. They haven't changed their Charter in which they promise to destroy Israel and reclaim WHOLE Palestine for the Arabs.



Why did you do it, then?

We can compare the situation in principle. And it's not just Germany, Japan is much better example - suicide bombers (kamikaze), the stubborn resistance when the war was clearly lost, the promises to fight to the very last toddler etc. It turned out that the Americans just had to use more violence to bring them to reason - and it actually helped Japan.

So, Israel needs to use more violence, not less to end this conflict.

I did not compare the nations. I compared the effect of war victims. I could've just as well used the Chinese and Japanese as examples, or the Baltic peoples and the Russians, or any other billion examples of invasion.

The big difference between Palestine and Germany/Japan is that Palestine does not feel like it has started this conflict. Ironically, both Israel and Palestine try to show themselves as the defenders, while neither is true, they're both aggresive pigs.

But just as we shouldn't shove aside Israel's peace overtures as nonsense, neither should we Palestine's. This is where you people are going radically wrong. You do take Israel's attempts at peace seriously, but you consider Yasser Arafat a terrorist and don't believe that Hamas would actually truly consider the Arab Peace Initiative. And obviously, the Palestinians want to be taken seriously. And if they don't feel that's happening, they'll turn to violence to prove that they really want a fair deal.

It's disgusting, yes, but it's basic sociology.