Israel Navy Opens Fire on Gaza Aid Flotilla

[Steph]

This only follows if you are predisposed to think this, or in other words illogical, or in other words irrelevant.

Why is it illogical?

 

[Ayn Rand]

...is pretty much what political discourse IS. We offer competing and disagreeing descriptions of reality and attempt to make them more powerful and influential than others, wielding all the tools of persuasion from raw emotional appeals to factual claims to sarcastic humour.

You are describing rhetoric, not logical analysis.

An appeal to "objective logic" is just an attempt, among many, to give one's descriptive and subjective claims more weight.

That's true of a false claim to objectivity, it's not true of actual objectivity.

Your subjective perceptions of people make you believe that.

Almost everyone has a rational mind but people are influnced by what they see, here and read and the order they see it in.

Are you arguing that most people are rational, or that subjective perceptions matter most? You can't argue for both, they are mutually incompatible.

 

[Patroklos]

Why is it illogical?

Logic would be the following.

Turkey sponsors a terrorist organization knowingly---->Terrorist organization makes illegal intentions known---->Terrorist organization uses normal tactic of hiding behind civilians---->Despite this Isreal still offers to let them accomplish their purpose but after inspection----->Terrorist organization refuses while talking about martydom and general Jew hating which should make their sham transparent to any logical observer---->Terrorists now try and execute their exposed sham and Israel boards in a police action as any other nation would----->Terrorists prove they are in fact just that---->vessels are detained and contraband is found (NVGs, body armor)

Logical conclusion: Israel stopped a group of terrorists (regardless of whatever useful idiots they had for cover) who both proved via their actions and contraband they were exactly that. Combined with the fact that the aid scam was exposed prior to this means that the whole "we were just bringing aid to help the children and Israel is brutal" line is only relevant to those who are predisposed to believe it anyway, or as I said illogical and irrelevant.

 

[Steph]

You forget a big something... The important point is not the reality, or how you see things, but how the world perceive it. Read again my post with this in mind.

Some feel the aid flotilla was a humanitarian effort ro relieve suffering of the hapless Palestinian people, which some activists used a deliberate provocatopn to break the blocus (it's not an embargo), not to allow proper weapon shipments to reach Hamas, but to get an answer from Israel that would be out or proportion and damage the image of Israel.

 

[Silurian]

Ayn Rand@

Are you arguing that most people are rational, or that subjective perceptions matter most? You can't argue for both, they are mutually incompatible.

Most people are rational.
All perceptions are subjective. (You can start another thread about this if you wish)

I was not on board the ships or in one of the helicopters.
Everything I “know” is from TV, Radio and internet.
Different TV channels etc interview different people and show different videos etc.
Because they select what they show they are subjective sources of information.
Other people have noted that the IDF video is edited.
People will say things in interviews to make themselves seem better or things sound more dramatic etc




How people view Israel is important to Israel.

If Israelis do not care about how other people perceive them it will increase the number of people who perceive them badly

 

[Patroklos]

Patroklos@


Palestians should be allowed to vote in the government they wish.
I would prefer that they did not elect Hamas or any other religious group.

Israel should stop cutting off its nose to spite its face and make peace with its enemys.

You mean the enemies whose existance is predicated on Israel's destuction? For whom the death of every Israeli man, woman, and child is their guiding pricipal?

Despite the above Israel has tried that before. Shockingly, it led to the attempted destuction of Isreal by killing as many men, women and children as possible which was supported gleefully buy the majority of Palestinians. Israel relaxes its stance, and in short order busses get bombed and rockets fired.

 

[Silurian]

From Georgia outdoor news

My boyfriend asked me to list these NVG's he brought home from IRAQ, they are actually Russian. These are not the cheap 2 or 300 dollar NVG's you can get off of EBAY, these are Excellent quality, military precision NVG's. These are 2nd generation NVG's. They have a 3-500 yard range and excellent optic clarity.


Many night vision binoculars can be found in the market today but only few of them can give you topnotch performance even on low light conditions. The Oldelft Pb4ds night vision binoculars are one of the popular binoculars.

Its range of binoculars brings you an extensive field of vision hence it will let you see things even in darkest places.

The Oldelft Pb4ds is one of the top night vision binoculars used by military and police departments. The night vision binoculars consist of an image intensifies cylinder and a water-resistant housing that protects the binocular at any given condition.

He has been offered $5000 for them from officers in the past but never had any desire to part with them. Make an offer. Pics coming soon

Patroklos@

---->vessels are detained and contraband is found (NVGs, body armor)

Is ownership of NVG proof of membership of a terrorist organastion or intentions.

 

[Silurian]

Patroklos@
I assume that you are talking about the conflict that developed after the little walk on Temple Mount

Do you want Israel to be at war forever.

You make peace with people who want to kill you.
If they did not want to kill you you would not have to make peace with them.

 

[Ayn Rand]

Ayn Rand@
Most people are rational.
All perceptions are subjective. (You can start another thread about this if you wish)

The objective balance of facts does tend to support Israel, and as you note, most people are rational. Therefore by your own admission, the only people who are continuing to support the Palestinian case are those who have either been misinformed of the objective facts, or those who have been informed but who are members of the irrational minority.

Which of those two groups are you a member of?

If Israelis do not care about how other people perceive them it will increase the number of people who perceive them badly

The Israelis don't control how other people perceive them.

 

[MobBoss]

You forget a big something... The important point is not the reality, or how you see things, but how the world perceive it. Read again my post with this in mind.

Several have mentioned this. I pointed out that a lot of the world is simply ignorant, and will believe what they want to believe irregardless of the facts. like this fact I posted earlier....and it didnt get a single comment about it.

Well, apparently a Frenchman is commenting about some of the terror connections of the organization behind the flotilla: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/0...ys-turkish-charity-gaza-flotilla-terror-ties/

PARIS

The Turkish Islamic charity behind a flotilla of aid ships that was raided by Israeli forces on its way to Gaza had ties to terrorism networks, including a 1999 Al Qaeda plot to bomb Los Angeles International Airport, France's former top anti-terrorism judge said Wednesday.

The Istanbul-based Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, had "clear, long-standing ties to terrorism and Jihad," former investigating judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.

Bruguiere, who led the French judiciary's counterterrorism unit for nearly two decades before retiring in 2007, didn't indicate whether IHH now has terror ties, but said it did when he investigated it in the late 1990s.

"They were basically helping Al Qaeda when (Usama) bin Laden started to want to target U.S. soil," he said.

So....why are so many vigriously defending a group with known terrorits ties?

 

[Steph]

I know this man, and I think he is very respectful.

However, you have probably noticed

"Bruguiere ... didn't indicate whether IHH now has terror ties, but said it did when he investigated it in the late 1990s."

You cannot be 100% sure that they still have connection to terrorist, they may have evolved past that.

Compare how hamas/Fatah evolved with years.

Also, even if they have supposed links with terrorist, it doesn't change the fact the flottilla carried only aid, and not weapon, and that it was Israel which killed people.

Whatever the reason behind, the damage to the image of Israel IS done.

I pointed out that a lot of the world is simply ignorant, and will believe what they want to believe irregardless of the facts

First, this could apply to a lot of people (including you), and second, it just endorse what I'm saying: in term of image and world opinion, the raid is a success for the flotilla, not for Israel.

 

[YonatanBlum]

I wouldn't be so sure that political isolation will ever equal economic isolation for Israel... Frankly, the country has far too much to offer investors and technology for little things like this "bloody massacre" to change the economic situation. The economic situation is not changed by one bit by even more serious things like the siege of Gaza, which is not actually causing enough suffering to elicit any concrete action from the international community, and contrary to popular belief, is not "genocide", but that's besides the point...

What I'm basically saying is that the number of opportunities that is being present to foreign investors will not change as the status-quo continues to be the status-quo. Economics is simply more significant than politics in this situation... Unless an -actual- genocide or an all-out prolonged war takes place, the economic situation will continue to be the same, if not grow. Do you -really- think that people genuinely interested in making money and advancing technology take the plight of the Palestinians into account? Nope, they don't.

 

[MobBoss]

I know this man, and I think he is very respectful.

However, you have probably noticed

"Bruguiere ... didn't indicate whether IHH now has terror ties, but said it did when he investigated it in the late 1990s."

You cannot be 100% sure that they still have connection to terrorist, they may have evolved past that.

I read that as well and guess what. My reply is 'how often do leopards change their spots'?

Compare how hamas/Fatah evolved with years.

And they still conduct terrorist acts despite becoming more political.

Also, even if they have supposed links with terrorist, it doesn't change the fact the flottilla carried only aid, and not weapon, and that it was Israel which killed people.

Knives, baseball bats, body armor, gas mask, night vision goggles are all weapons or military grade contraband. All of that was on the ship.

Do you deny this?

 

[Steph]

Knives, baseball bats, body armor, gas mask, night vision goggles are all weapons or military grade contraband. All of that was on the ship.

I have not seen a full listing of the shipments. But I think I can deny that baseball bats are military grade contraband.

 

[onedreamer]

They should've waited until they were in Israeli waters.

I'd like to hear more about the attack on that ship. It seems to have gone ok on most ships and it should be questioned if Israeli soldiers would massacre unarmed people in a so massmedially (new word for you) observed action. No good would come from it and they should know it. One possibility is that one or more activists were more extremely inclined and went for martyrdom. Open fire or give appearance of it and several dies in the process. That would of course hurt Israel and strengthen the opponents cause.

Either way, it's a problematic situation that's been put on it's edge by the organizers of Ship to Gaza.

1) They shot the ONU Hospital in Gaza one year ago with phosphorus bullets and there has been no consequences, why should they bother killing a few Turks today ? After all, they are muslims. The problem here is caused by the apologists, they are responsible for the rampaging military arrogance of Israel, each time these incidents happen they come out to excuse them because of their past victims and because they can't believe that Israelians can commit homicide, even in front of massmedially documented acts of homicide or genocide the apologizers will shield Israel, and each time Israelians aim higher...
2a) Even assuming there were martyrs on that ship, Israel had no right to board on them on the first place, so this can't be an excuse
2b) Innocent people that are far from being martyrs were first beaten, then "arrested" (actually kidnapped) in international waters, brought into a prision in Israel, they were denied any right including calling an advocate, and when they were released they weren't given back the confiscated properties. An Italian videomaker lost 10k euros in equipment in the Israelian raid.

 

[onedreamer]

Knives, baseball bats, body armor, gas mask, night vision goggles are all weapons or military grade contraband. All of that was on the ship.

Do you deny this?

The real question is can you PROVE this ? LOL.
But even if... How did the Israelians know they were on board ?

 

[MobBoss]

I have not seen a full listing of the shipments. But I think I can deny that baseball bats are military grade contraband.

Can baseball bats be used as weapons? Yes or no? Are baseball bats considered 'humanitarian aid? Yes or no?

Come on Steph, this is an easy one, why are you trying to dodge it? I asked you a simple question. I assume you now recognize the fact that the ships were indeed carrying more than just humanitarian aid, right?

The real question is can you PROVE this ? LOL.
But even if... How did the Israelians know they were on board ?

Its already proven. All you have to do is watch any of the videos of the boarding action in question to see those 'humanitarians' using all the equipment I just listed.

EDIT: An update as well: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/03/biden-israel-right-stop-gaza-ships/

Vice President Joe Biden backed Israel's right to board ships bound for Gaza to prevent weapons smuggling on Wednesday, but said Washington remained concerned about the plight of Palestinians there.

 

[Patroklos]

From Georgia outdoor news

http://www.gunsforsale.com/

Just in case you thought you had a point.

Is ownership of NVG proof of membership of a terrorist organastion or intentions.

It is when you are a terrorist group tagged by the UN, US, and Turkey and are admittedly entering a country illegally where such items are specifically prohibited.

This is not the line you want to run with, it is tied squarely around your neck with a noose.

 

[Steph]

Can baseball bats be used as weapons? Yes or no? Are baseball bats considered 'humanitarian aid? Yes or no?
Come on Steph, this is an easy one, why are you trying to dodge it?

Come on, that's indeed an easy one. The main purpose of baseball bat is to play baseball. You should be proud that one of your country favourite game is exported to Palestine by an humanitarian group who wants to alleviate the suffering of Gaza children through sport.
And I'ml still waiting for some reference to "military grade baseball bats".

 

[Patroklos]

Your inability to admit the obvious is damning.