Israel Navy Opens Fire on Gaza Aid Flotilla

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look Israel is the victim here at first they lost there nation the they were well attack by Hitler the Great briten gaved them a home and the the Islamic called for you death. they will do everthing in there power to save there self
 
look Israel is the victim here at first they lost there nation the they were well attack by Hitler the Great briten gaved them a home and the the Islamic called for you death. they will do everthing in there power to save there self

no
obviously the original inhabitants of kanaan are the big victims

And they said to Joshua, "Surely the Lord. has given all the land into our hands, and all the inhabitants of the land, moreover, have melted away before us." (Joshua 2:24).
 
look Israel is the victim here at first they lost there nation the they were well attack by Hitler the Great briten gaved them a home and the the Islamic called for you death. they will do everthing in there power to save there self

True, but that is a different and complex issue that will require its own 200-page thread to deal with.

Taillesskangaroo does have a point - the initial Jewish settlement lacked justification from the Palestinian point of view, by any objective standard.
 
So, to summarize:

Some of us believe the aid flotilla was a genuine humanitarian effort to relieve the suffering of the hapless Palestinian people. And the Israelis were bad to stop it.

While others feel that the aid flotilla was a deliberate provocation to break the embargo and allow proper weapon shipments to reach Hamas. And the Israelis were right to stop it.

It's a fundamental difference in outlook that we're not going to settle here and now, but I guess it's interesting to talk about.
 
From Haaretz

Shin Bet deports Spain's most famous clown upon arrival in Israel
Ben Gurion Airport security officials detain Ivan Prado for six hours, accusing the Spanish entertainer of ties with Palestinian terror groups.
By Barak Ravid Ivan Prado, the most famous clown in Spain, did not expect to be put on a return flight back to Madrid soon after arriving at Ben-Gurion International Airport late last month, after spending six hours with officials from the Shin Bet security service and the Interior Ministry. The officials accused Prado of having ties to Palestinian terror organizations.

Israel acting to lower support in Spain

As I said above

The legality of the Israeli attack is irrelevant

A large section of the opinion forming population believe it is wrong and in the end that is what will matter


Originally Posted by Ayn Rand
That is not true. Reason and the facts will prevail in the end. Hamas will be pushed out of power, and the region will move towards stability, progress and individual freedom. One way or the other, the Israelis will persevere, and America will stay the course with them.

The facts are shaped by what people believe them to be.

Israel did not succeed in negations with the PLO/PLA.
The Palestinians elected Hamas because the PLA did not get anywhere and their increasingly corrupt. Who will push Hamas out of power. What will happen if Hamas stays in power

Faith in some savior leading to the region moving towards stability, progress and individual freedom will lead to the further decline in Israel’s reputation.

Israel cannot rely on other countries to save it forever.
The US turned away Jewish refugees before WW2 and they could do so again or they may not be in the position to help.

Israel must make peace with its enemies or it will decline and face a bleak future
 
So, to summarize:

Some of us believe the aid flotilla was a genuine humanitarian effort to relieve the suffering of the hapless Palestinian people. And the Israelis were bad to stop it.

While others feel that the aid flotilla was a deliberate provocation to break the embargo and allow proper weapon shipments to reach Hamas. And the Israelis were right to stop it.

It's a fundamental difference in outlook that we're not going to settle here and now, but I guess it's interesting to talk about.

SUMMARY:

True, although in addition to the two subjective position you have described there is a third - the objective analysis of the facts.

While most people have made descriptive statements concerning their subjective feelings or interest, there seems to have been little agreement concerning what ought to have been objectively agreeable principles and facts - vis a vis:

1) the legality of the boarding action
2) the precedent for such actions in international waters

3) the necessity of the convoy to ship aid [and thus not stand down]
4) the necessity of the Israelis to use force [in self-defence]

Of these four elements, the first is not yet clear, although it appears to be legal.
The second is that there have been many such actions and there is a precedent.
The third is that alternative means were available so there was no necessity.
The fourth is that warnings were issued and Israel fired in self-defence.

So restricting the discussion purely to the incident (not wider Palestine-Israel question) the balance of purely objective analysis rests heavily in favour of the Israelis. Repeated attempts to demonstrate otherwise, through objective fact, have failed, and degenerated into descriptive, subjective statements without analytical value.
 
Ahovking@
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silurian
Israel has no need to have peace talks with Australia.

Dude Australia is an ally of Israel

I am glad you agree that Israel has no need to have peace talks with Australia.

Israel has to make peace with its enemies.
 
Originally Posted by Glassfan
So, to summarize:

Some of us believe the aid flotilla was a genuine humanitarian effort to relieve the suffering of the hapless Palestinian people. And the Israelis were bad to stop it.

While others feel that the aid flotilla was a deliberate provocation to break the embargo and allow proper weapon shipments to reach Hamas. And the Israelis were right to stop it.

It's a fundamental difference in outlook that we're not going to settle here and now, but I guess it's interesting to talk about.

I do not believe either of the above.

I believe the aid flotilla was a genuine humanitarian effort to relieve the suffering of the hapless Palestinian people by a deliberate provocation to break the embargo and force Israel to stop it. By so doing they put the blockade in the news and so put pressure on Israel to modify it.

They have succeeded in their objective.
 
So, to summarize:
Some of us believe the aid flotilla was a genuine humanitarian effort to relieve the suffering of the hapless Palestinian people. And the Israelis were bad to stop it.

While others feel that the aid flotilla was a deliberate provocation to break the embargo and allow proper weapon shipments to reach Hamas. And the Israelis were right to stop it.
Your sumary is incomplete.

Some feel the aid flotilla was a humanitarian effort ro relieve suffering of the hapless Palestinian people, which some activists used a deliberate provocatopn to break the blocus (it's not an embargo), not to allow proper weapon shipments to reach Hamas, but to get an answer from Israel that would be out or proportion and damage the image of Israel.

Basically:
- Israel say they won't let the flotilla pass, and they let them pass = victory Hamas, the humanitarien help arrives, Israel appears weak.
- Israel stop the flotilla by force = aid doesn't reach Gaza, but Israel is shown as a mercyless brutal oppressor which doesn't respect international rumes = Hamas win.
 
Ayn Rand@
The perception of the facts are what matters.

How people perceive the facts will form their opinions.

As Israel digs holes for itself its reputation declines.

If people believe that Israel is an unjust nation its products will be increasingly boycotted, it will be removed from the eurovision song contest (some Israeli with interests in music may think that is good) etc.

The real world is not a court of law where all the facts are known.
 
Ayn Rand@
The perception of the facts are what matters.

How people perceive the facts will form their opinions.

As Israel digs holes for itself its reputation declines.

If people believe that Israel is an unjust nation its products will be increasingly boycotted, it will be removed from the eurovision song contest (some Israeli with interests in music may think that is good) etc.

The real world is not a court of law where all the facts are known.

What you mean with your statement is that you don't believe any objective World exists outside the subjective perceptions of people without rational minds. Good luck with that, I hope it works out well for you :)
 
Ayn Rand@
1) the legality of the boarding action
2) the precedent for such actions in international waters

3) the necessity of the convoy to ship aid [and thus not stand down]
4) the necessity of the Israelis to use force [in self-defence]

Of these four elements, the first is not yet clear, although it appears to be legal.
The second is that there have been many such actions and there is a precedent.
The third is that alternative means were available so there was no necessity.
The fourth is that warnings were issued and Israel fired in self-defence.

1) I have missed the posts that give backing for legally assaulting unarmed neutral non-combatants outside territorial waters rather than say firing a shot across the bows.
4) This is not agreed and is the basis of Israel’s problem.
 
Ayn Rand@


1) I have missed the posts that give backing for legally assaulting unarmed neutral non-combatants outside territorial waters rather than say firing a shot across the bows.
4) This is not agreed and is the basis of Israel’s problem.

Disputing the objective facts is far more sensible than making descriptive and subjective statements, because no group of people with differing subjective feelings are ever going to agree.

I concede that the legality is potentially still at issue, as are the true events of the fighting. The outcome will strengthen or weaken the balance of judgement for/against Israel depending on how that plays out. If the facts remain at issue, a reserved judgement will have to be made - although in neither case will a subjective judgement be relevant.

Of crucial importance, though, is the fact that the Palestinians were not driven by necessity. They could have been an aid convoy and docked in Israel.
 
The Palestinians elected Hamas because the PLA did not get anywhere and their increasingly corrupt. Who will push Hamas out of power. What will happen if Hamas stays in power

And how is that working out for them? Why don't we contrast life in the West Bank and Gaza and see which Palestinian group cut off its nose to spite the face?

Basically:
- Israel say they won't let the flotilla pass, and they let them pass = victory Hamas, the humanitarien help arrives, Israel appears weak.
- Israel stop the flotilla by force = aid doesn't reach Gaza, but Israel is shown as a mercyless brutal oppressor which doesn't respect international rumes = Hamas win.

This only follows if you are predisposed to think this, or in other words illogical, or in other words irrelevant.
 
making descriptive and subjective statements

...is pretty much what political discourse IS. We offer competing and disagreeing descriptions of reality and attempt to make them more powerful and influential than others, wielding all the tools of persuasion from raw emotional appeals to factual claims to sarcastic humour.

An appeal to "objective logic" is just an attempt, among many, to give one's descriptive and subjective claims more weight.
 
Ayn Rand@
What you mean with your statement is that you don't believe any objective World exists outside the subjective perceptions of people without rational minds. Good luck with that, I hope it works out well for you

Your subjective perceptions of people make you believe that.

Almost everyone has a rational mind but people are influnced by what they see, here and read and the order they see it in.

People who support Isreal will see the lowering of troops into a hostile crowd as misguided and are unlikely to increase their support.

People who are on the fence will see troops being lowerred into a hostile crowd. They will be shocked at the Isreali action when the hostile crowd reacts in a hostile manner and are gunned down. They are likely to reduce there support to Israel
 
Patroklos@
And how is that working out for them? Why don't we contrast life in the West Bank and Gaza and see which Palestinian group cut off its nose to spite the face?

Palestians should be allowed to vote in the government they wish.
I would prefer that they did not elect Hamas or any other religious group.

Israel should stop cutting off its nose to spite its face and make peace with its enemys.
 
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