It should be "TURKS", not OTTOMANS

[blitzkrieg1980]

Appeasement does not work. Maybe that's propaganda, but not all propaganda are false. Going by the pacifist logic flying around here, if North Korea nukes and invades South Korea, the moral thing for Americans to do is sit by and watch. Why participate and do evil things like kill people? It's none of your business anyway. Let the Koreans kill each other on their own, there will be fewer people dead that way.

The day such a mentality prevails, I hope I'm long dead.

Precisely my point, aelf. I mean, to the finest detail precise. If you saw my previous post, you'll see what I mean. I could not agree with you more. I consider myself a pacifist, and was attacked when I stated these type of thoughts. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

EDIT: To ammend this, I do believe that the US has stuck itself into this part of the world (and others) for far too long. However, if the SK's end up being attacked and ask the US to help, of course we should assist with no questions asked. However, that's if they ask us to!

 

[Swedishguy]

Huh? If you're saying that because I'm Jewish I'm more sensitive to Nazi atrocities than other atrocities, well, yeah, I'm aware of that bias.

But at the same time, American, British, Russian, etc, and even Japanese assembly lines were geared primarily towards building a war machine to inflict mass casualties against an enemy combatant nation. German assembly lines were geared towards that, but also towards killing as many innocent German nationals (and innocents from other countries as well) as possible (and not just Jews) as quickly as possible.

[EDIT]Oh, also, Stalin committed his atrocities over the course of 25 years. Hitler committed his over the course of 6. So Hitler killed about 1.2M a year, while Stalin killed about .8M or so.[/EDIT]

Nothing about your Jewish heritage, I just wondered if it was the ultimate form of torture in your opinion. I didn't know you were Jewish.

 

[eric_]

Nothing about your Jewish heritage, I just wondered if it was the ultimate form of torture in your opinion. I didn't know you were Jewish.

Ah. I had mentioned it in a previous response. My apologies for the assumption.

What form of torture are you inquiring about? Gassing? Ovens? Starvation?

 

[SkippyT]

minci, nobody was hating on the turks until u started this thread. now, everyone is bashing u. u brought this upon urself. good job.
ps. turkey has never been a great empire - it was average at best. totally overrated.

WTH? Average at best? Are you joking or what? The Turks were the greatest Islamic(/Arabic) empire ever
And that says a lot! You have to be forgetting that the Zulu empire is in the game, the Aztec empire is in the game, the Inca empire is in the game and you can't really tell me they're a "greater" empire than the Turks! But the fact is that they dominated the area (Zulu in S-Africa, Inca in Western S-America and Aztecs of Mesoamerica)

 

[Swedishguy]

All! 56789

EDIT: Talking to eric.

 

[eric_]

I consider myself a pacifist, and was attacked when I stated these type of thoughts. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

I don't mean to attack you, but you're not a pacifist if you'd meet violence with violence. I, myself, am the same sort of person you seem to be: I won't start a fight, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit there and take my licks.

 

[Swedishguy]

You mean you go out on a 'raid'?

 

[eric_]

I'm not sure what you're asking me, Swedishguy.

The Turks were the greatest Islamic(/Arabic) empire ever

Do you mean the Ottomans? Turkey is a great nation, for sure, but it can't really stand up to what the Ottoman Empire was at its peak.

And as far as I know, there was never an empire called the Turk Empire.

 

[Abegweit]

Appeasement does not work. Maybe that's propaganda, but not all propaganda are false. Going by the pacifist logic flying around here, if North Korea nukes and invades South Korea, the moral thing for Americans to do is sit by and watch. Why participate and do evil things like kill people? It's none of your business anyway. Let the Koreans kill each other on their own, there will be fewer people dead that way.

The day such a mentality prevails, I hope I'm long dead.

Let's follow this, shall we? There are more than a million men facing each other across the DMZ. Of these 30,000 are American. Do you honestly believe that they have the slightest impact, other than to exacerbate relations between the two Koreas?

South Korea has twice the population and fifty times the GDP of the North. Do you honestly believe that they are incapable of defending themselves?

In any war between the two, the North would rapidly and decisively lose. Of course, Seoul would be annilated in the process (more from the thousands of artillery aimed at it than from whatever unreliable nuclear weapons Kim Jong-il may have). But the North would lose and the Dear Leader would be hanged for his crimes. What's more, he knows it.

The Americans should leave Korea and go home, just as they should leave Germany and Japan. These countries, especially Korea, do not want or need American military "aid". They are quite capable of defending themselves. Undoubtedly the reason why the Koreans want the Americans out more than the other two is because they actually have a potential enemy - one which the Americans are antagonising, threatening and baiting.

As for "appeasement", the South Koreans believe that it works. And that's their business. Not yours.

 

[Swedishguy]

I'm not sure what you're asking me, Swedishguy.

I wondered if you attack their border citites.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Let's follow this, shall we? There are more than a million men facing each other across the DMZ. Of these 30,000 are American. Do you honestly believe that they have the slightest impact, other than to exacerbate relations between the two Koreas?

South Korea has twice the population and fifty times the GDP of the North. Do you honestly believe that they are incapable of defending themselves?

In any war between the two, the North would rapidly and decisively lose. Of course, Seoul would be annilated in the process (more from the thousands of artillery aimed at it than from whatever unreliable nuclear weapons Kim Jong-il may have). But the North would lose and the Dear Leader would be hanged for his crimes. What's more, he knows it.

The Americans should leave Korea and go home, just as they should leave Germany and Japan. These countries, especially Korea, do not want or need American military "aid". They are quite capable of defending themselves. Undoubtedly the reason why the Koreans want the Americans out more than the other two is because they actually have a potential enemy - one which the Americans are antagonising, threatening and baiting.

As for "appeasement", the South Koreans believe that it works. And that's their business. Not yours.

Agreed, agreed, and agreed again. America needs to get her nose out of a majority of her "foreign interests' " business. Let's face it, America has displayed all the major characteristics of empire, but loves to brag about the "democracy" she has. HAH! What democracy. A democratic republic, first of all, and what kind of "democracy" forces itself unto other nations. BAH! I begin to rant though.

 

[Swedishguy]

Agreed, agreed, and agreed again. America needs to get her nose out of a majority of her "foreign interests' " business. Let's face it, America has displayed all the major characteristics of empire, but loves to brag about the "democracy" she has. HAH! What democracy. A democratic republic, first of all, and what kind of "democracy" forces itself unto other nations. BAH! I begin to rant though.

Here's a swedish joke: A man were looking trough a narrow hole when he thought: I now as much about the outside world as american presidents!

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^^LOL! How true!

 

[Swedishguy]

Yep, I read it in PC-Gamer.

 

[Wodan]

True, Wodan. You are right. Sorry. He is just very insulting and, in my opinion, quite ignorant. But I concede. I must chill out

I run into that sometimes too. I guess I feel that when I think the other guys is insulting and/or ignorant, that precisely when it's more important for me to keep my cool and stay rational. Was a hard lesson for me to learn but I'm much better at it now than a few years ago.

One thing you can always do is ask for supporting evidence. People tend to make a blanket statement, you know, a sweeping conclusion without any stated logical basis. Just ask them to back it up, and leave it at that.

Okay, enough pedantic advice. Back to the flame war at hand.

True. But only if you win. All sides killed by the million: Germans, Russians, Japanese, Brits, Americans and both Chinese factions. But the crimes of the Nazis are endlessly paraded in front of us and those of Tojo come up too (although Hirohito is curiously exempt from criticism). In contrast, those of the Russians and Chinese are largely forgotten while, as we see here, those of the Americans and the British are even lauded.

I don't disagree. I think we all have ghosts in the closet. On the other hand, I think there is much to find admirable in all peoples and cultures. Wouldn't it be nice if we could take the good that each culture has to offer, leave the bad where it belongs in the past, and become a world with a lot better prospects and future.

Sometimes I get annoyed with the baggage that people carry around. Like the German pathological aversion to anything having anything to do with Hitler. Or American blacks playing the racist card on the slightest provocation, when there was nothing racist having to do with it. The baggage just propagates the problem in an opposite, but equally negative way.

My apologies. You are right.

No worries.

Appeasement does not work. Maybe that's propaganda, but not all propaganda are false. Going by the pacifist logic flying around here, if North Korea nukes and invades South Korea, the moral thing for Americans to do is sit by and watch. Why participate and do evil things like kill people? It's none of your business anyway. Let the Koreans kill each other on their own, there will be fewer people dead that way.

I totally agree. That's moral decay, not moral courage.

Let's follow this, shall we? There are more than a million men facing each other across the DMZ. Of these 30,000 are American. Do you honestly believe that they have the slightest impact, other than to exacerbate relations between the two Koreas?

I think he was saying that the south is a joint military force, including US troops. If the south is attacked, then the US is attacked. This has no relation to how much the US presence adds to the south's combat power.

South Korea has twice the population and fifty times the GDP of the North. Do you honestly believe that they are incapable of defending themselves?

The Americans should leave Korea and go home, just as they should leave Germany and Japan. These countries, especially Korea, do not want or need American military "aid". They are quite capable of defending themselves.

The reason America has bases all over the world is to have advance staging areas in the event of a future conflict. It doesn't really have anything to do with "protecting" our allies, not any more. As you say, almost all of them don't need or want it, and I agree with you there.

In any war between the two, the North would rapidly and decisively lose. Of course, Seoul would be annilated in the process (more from the thousands of artillery aimed at it than from whatever unreliable nuclear weapons Kim Jong-il may have). But the North would lose and the Dear Leader would be hanged for his crimes. What's more, he knows it.

Are you implying he won't go to war because he knows he'll lose? Doesn't that assume he thinks and acts in accordance to what we think is rational?

Well... History has shown that leaders aren't and don't (especially military dictators or religious leaders).

Heck, he probably thinks the same thing about America (that we aren't rational).

Wodan

 

[eric_]

Yep, I read it in PC-Gamer.

A truly broad view, if ever there was one.

I agree we spend way too much energy on foreign entaglements, something our first President warned against.

And I'm sure your respective countries are beacon lights of moral perfectitude.

I wondered if you attack their border citites.

I apologize, but I still am not following your questions, nor the impetus for them. Whose border cities and under what circumstances?

 

[eric_]

It doesn't really have anything to do with "protecting" our allies, not any more.

Heh...I thought our presence in Japan and Germany was containment moreso than protection .

I don't have the sense that Germany and Japan are aching for us to leave. Not so sure about South Korea. I'm sure they don't mind the added deterrent. As much as South Korea is well armed, a war with the US is a whole different ballgame (or was before we squandered a great deal of our military in Iraq).

 

[Wodan]

I don't have the sense that Germany and Japan are aching for us to leave.

Germany probably appreciates the influx of cash into their economy... it's not insignificant I'm sure. Japan I think is a tossup but if you polled the entire country most of them would rather have us gone, for one reason or another.

Wodan

 

[eric_]

Well, sure, but I don't have the sense they're livid over our presence. Basically my point is that our relationship with Japan seems to be extremely symbiotic and healthy. I don't think withdrawing our military would hurt, but I don't think its being their is hurting that much, either.

I don't really know enough about the details of the situation to have my own opinion one way or the other. Same goes for S. Korea and Germany. I just don't hear much along the lines of any of their countries being outright bitter towards us.

The Middle East, I have strong opinions about our involvement there, and they're mostly self-critical.

 

[Wodan]

I see your point, Eric.

As for Japan, I was thinking back to a business trip I took there. I was suprised at the negative attitudes a couple of folks showed me. But I'm 6'5" and obviously caucausian, plus American accent.

Then again, by and large, most of the folks were very polite and welcoming.

My nephew is stationed in S. Korea, I should ask him about it. He's getting ready to be posted/transferred to Afganistan, possibly a very good thing given the news.

Wodan