Italy Solution - Wonders?

[PhoenicianGold]

So everyone wants Italian representation outside of Rome. But there are substantial disagreements about which Italy should be represented. Do we simply want Venice again as partial representation? Do we want an equivalent city-state like Genoa as equally partial representation? Do we want both, or one with Florence/Milan/Whatever as an "Italic League" civ like Greece? Should the Papal States get involved? Or do we just want a flat-out Italian Kingdom?

And then I remembered we already have Venice representation. We have the Venetian Arsenal. We technically don't need a Venice civ anymore, since we can incorporate one of the best, identifying things about Venice into whatever civ we like.

So, to at least eliminate some of these "city-state republic" options, what if the Civ developers just "represented" the Italic League with various wonders? Like how Oman/Swahili are "represented" by Kilwa Kisiwani? The series already has a history of including a few of these, anyway, so why not expand and refine the concept to make the selections more meaningful with respect to Civ's complicated relationship with post-Rome Italy?

Examples:

• Venice - Venetian Arsenal
  
• Genoa - Lanterna di Genoa
  
• Papal States - St. Peters' Basilica
  
• Naples/Sicily - Pompeii or Palace of Caserta
  
• Florence - Palazzo Medici
  
• Milan - Galleria Vittorio Emmanuele II

Or:

• Venice - Venetian Arsenal
• Genoa - Lanterna di Genoa
• Pisa - Leaning Tower of Pisa
• Amalfi - Paper Museum

If something akin to this were implemented (perhaps not as many wonders), we could get the straight-up Italy civ everyone wants.

I'm gonna make a poll checking the popularity of these wonders. Post in the comments:

• Do you like this idea? Or if you think it is terrible, what do you think is a better solution?
  
• Would you buy a DLC pack with just an Italy civ and four-ish wonders?
• Would you prefer something different, like say a DLC pack with one or two specific city-state republics, four-ish wonders, and a scenario with token representation of the other city-states?
• Any other ways you would improve on this?

 

[Guandao]

I would be willing to buy a DLC pack with an Italian Civ and several wonders.
I'm sure others might prefer having two Italian city-state republic Civs, but I actually prefer a single Civ.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I'm sure others might prefer having two Italian city-state republic Civs, but I actually prefer a single Civ.

I would like a single Italy, too. Mostly because there's no happy way to please everyone.

If you want two republics who actually had something resembling an "empire," you'd have to choose between Venice, Genoa, and the Papal states. The Papal States are unlikely because of religious controversy, but there would be practically no room for differentiating Venice and Genoa. Having the Papal States and either Venice or Genoa would just be an arbitrary choice between the two and make the other feel "missing" (much like Scotland/Ireland and Norway/Denmark/Sweden.

And imo Florence and Milan aren't even in the same league as those; if anything Naples/Two Sicilies should be considered before those options. But they do happen to house influential buildings like operahouses and Italy's oldest shopping district. So, I don't see why they can't have a wonder too, when Greece and Egypt get so many.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'd take an Italian Civ with at least more leader option than wonders, that way it would feel less like a blob and more like this game's Greece and India.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I'd take an Italian Civ with at least more leader option than wonders, that way it would feel less like a blob and more like this game's Greece and India.

Okay, so now you have the tough decision of choosing which leaders. Do you use a King of Italy? A Pope? A Doge? From which republic? How do you justify leaving out the ones you don't choose leaders from? Why does Genoa or Venice get to be in when Sardinia and Florence were more influential in unifying Italy? Why do Sardinia and Florence get in when Genoa or Venice practically colonized the entire Mediterranean? There's no clear logic for how to do this like with Greece, which very clearly had the Delian and Peloppenesian leagues (and the Corinthian League, which gets near-representation by Macedon).

I think it would just be easier to just use Lorenzo de Medici or Umberto.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Okay, so now you have the tough decision of choosing which leaders. Do you use a King of Italy? A Pope? A Doge? From which republic? How do you justify leaving out the ones you don't choose leaders from? Why does Genoa or Venice get to be in when Sardinia and Florence were more influential in unifying Italy? Why do Sardinia and Florence get in when Genoa or Venice practically colonized the entire Mediterranean? There's no clear logic for how to do this like with Greece, which very clearly had the Delian and Peloppenesian leagues (and the Corinthian League, which gets near-representation by Macedon).

I think it would just be easier to just use Lorenzo de Medici or Umberto.

I would love Lorenzo de Medici from Florence. A leader from Genoa or Milan would be fine as well and would have no problem with another doge of Venice. I'd like Italy to be more Renaissance themed when it comes to the leaders and the abilities of the Civ. If I had to choose I would go with Florence and Genoa and give Venice, as a capital, a break this time if we only got two leaders.
There would have to be some sacrifices when it comes to which cities will become more important based off of the capital. I see it similar to how we got Scotland though over say Ireland. It's a matter of opinion on which you think would be either a) important, or b) interesting in terms of gameplay.

 

[Xandinho]

I voted in Venetian Arsenal, St. Peter's Basilica, Leaning Tower of Pisa and Other, in which I would suggest the Santa Maria del Fiori, this beautiful Florentine basilica should be included as a wonder.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I see it similar to how we got Scotland though over say Ireland. It's a matter of opinion on which you think would be either a) important, or b) interesting in terms of gameplay.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm still operating under the delusion that Scotland means Ireland is on the way.

I don't want a "this time" and "next time." I want Civ VI to be as complete as possible so Firaxis can't artificially extend the series' lifetime by "cycling" in different similar civs. I want it to be so complete that Civ VII is forced to be a completely different beast, not just Civ V/VI again.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I voted in Venetian Arsenal, St. Peter's Basilica, Leaning Tower of Pisa and Other, in which I would suggest the Santa Maria del Fiori, this beautiful Florentine basilica should be included as a wonder.

It is a beautiful basilica, but I just don't see them putting in two Italian basilicas, especially given St. Basil's and probably Notre Dame at some point. There is a small chance that they will just do "Sistine Chapel" again, which would then leave room for differentiating Santa Maria. However, I think this is unlikely in VI given that we now have physical buildings, and St. Peter's Basilica is an architectural marvel enough in itself to merit inclusion.

 

[thecrazyscot]

So everyone wants Italian representation outside of Rome.

Not everyone

Despite my indifference-leaning-towards-preference-against having a separate Italy using wonders for representation is actually quite an elegant alternative.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Not everyone

Despite my indifference-leaning-towards-preference-against having a separate Italy using wonders for representation is actually quite an elegant alternative.

Okay, I may have been slightly hyperbolic in that statement. But I'm glad you see that the idea still works even if there is no Italy civ.

 

[Kheznik]

What about the Florence Cathedral? It's one of the most iconic churches in the world, and even appeared on the main menu screen for Beyond the Sword, but it never gets any love.

That plus the Leaning Tower of Pisa, and of course an actual Renaissance-Era Italian civ, needs to happen. Lorenzo de 'Medici is my pick for leader, if we're only getting one. But a Venetian doge would be a nice secondary leader.

 

[Krajzen]

Give Italy "Greek Treatment". Two leaders, one of Florence other of Milan, otherwise city namelist of other Italian major cities except Rome (because you know - Rome civ). Medieval-renaissance bonuses.

Venice OCC experiment of civ5 was imo failed and limiting idea, Italy post 1860 would be very meh when compared to extreme advancement and importance of renaissance Italy - it would be like giving us post-1830 Greece instead of Byzantium. Papal State civ is imo either ridiculous or "perfect example of civ which should be city state instead" and don't even get me started on the stupidity of mixing Rome and Italy, saying Rome and Renaissance Italy are the same culture or (shudder) Mussolini.

And no amount of wonders will reduce my hunger for a proper Italian civ of its golen age

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Give Italy "Greek Treatment". Two leaders, one of Florence other of Milan, otherwise city namelist of other Italian major cities except Rome (because you know - Rome civ). Medieval-renaissance bonuses.

Okay, but why does Milan deserve a leader? That seems like a pretty arbitrary distinction.

 

[Phrozen]

Florence = culture.
Milan = Military. The Sforzas were also quite an extensive family when it came to other city states.

 

[Siptah]

My vote goes to the Duomo di Siena. Not an obvious pick, but a worthy one. The inside is not important for civ though.
As I‘ve written before, including the bell tower of Pisa Cathedral without the actual Cathedral is a really strange thing.
Pompeii as a wonder is just wrong.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

As I‘ve written before, including the bell tower of Pisa Cathedral without the actual Cathedral is a really strange thing.

I'm honestly surprised the tower of Pisa is tied for first. It's just a bell tower with a horsehockey foundation, not even particularly wondrous since it would have fallen and been demolished long ago were it not for repeated renovation efforts. And Pisa wasn't remotely as influential as Genoa and Amalfy. I wouldn't be devastated if it were included again, but frankly it's one of my top wonder choices that should get the axe.

 

[Metecury]

I'm honestly surprised the tower of Pisa is tied for first. It's just a bell tower with a ****** foundation, not even particularly wondrous since it would have fallen and been demolished long ago were it not for repeated renovation efforts. And Pisa wasn't remotely as influential as Genoa and Amalfy. I wouldn't be devastated if it were included again, but frankly it's one of my top wonder choices that should get the axe.

It is quite embedded in the stereotyped image people get of Italy from media and culture.

I'd say the Vittoriano/altare della patria in Rome would make an awesome wonder

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I'd say the Vittoriano/altare della patria in Rome would make an awesome wonder

It's like the inverse of my proposed concept, In the event we get an Italy represented by individual republics and/or their leaders, it would represent unified Italy. Excellent suggestion.