[BTS] Jacob's Shadow game

[lymond]

1) This is a little confusing, especially in conjunction with what you say in point 5) because there you do say I have enough workers. I think you're right though, I probably don't have enough at this point, especially if, based on point 7), I should have been roading to other civs for trade routes/commerce. To answer your question, the problem in Berlin is that I have all that food sitting there going to waste. I should know this by now. D'oh!

Ha..I was confused a bit myself by the fact that a) I had 2 point 5s ..derp and b) that was a mistake - I meant you did NOT have enough workers. The issue with Berlin is 3 fold - and tied to point two. The main issue is you are working unimproved tiles when as you correctly answered in point 2, that Berlin should have started running 2 scientists after the library (or grown into them depending on size/growth). The sooner you get that academy the better.

With that said though, you built a worker in Berlin. Given that Berlin is working unimproved tiles (well, the cow was given to new city temporarily which is okay to get that city going), I would have 2 popped whipped that worker after 1 turn of production (note: in case you are not aware, whipping on Turn 0 of production has a penalty)

You needed that extra worker anyway, and hammer overflow from the whip could be put into something useful like a new settler.

2) I think once the library was online I should have switched two citizens to scientists, working towards my first GS.

see above...but, yes, exactly

3) Those spots will be cottaged first so that they can be swapped and worked by more than one city so that their development is constant. I wasn't sure when to start building cottages because previously you had said that it was too early. Still not clear on the timing of this, and when situationally to build cottage vs farm.

You are most correct. Those spots can be tile shared with other cities to keep their progression going.

I think the answer to the whole "cottage timing" question comes down to what the worker needs are and the "phase" you are in. At the time I mentioned that earlier you were still very much in the aggressive expansion phase, where settlers/workers are more priority builds, and special tiles improved or chopping performed are worker priority. So it is easy to explain that way, but harder to get a "feel" for this..that will come the more you play.

Furthermore, at the time, you really did not have the cities and city growth to even work the cottages, and Berlin would be focusing on running scientists. Now you are getting very close to putting down some cottages. And don't forget the advice about using workers 2 moves to use the half move to put down part of an improvement (road/cottage/farm).

cottage vs. farm is mainly determined by the a) the type of city b) the food needs. Berlin - although not an ideal Bureau cap is the best thing you've got and does have several good tiles for cottages (riverside grass and flood plains are what you think of here)

Ham has the gold which is food deficit and likely will use rice for its main food, although rice can be shared at times with Munich as or if needed. Rice will be irrigated later after CS is teched by the farm adjacent to it. So I see Ham as more of a production type city with farms and mines. Same with the horse city. yeah I would usually cottage flood plains, but horse city needs food - it has no food specials. If the city had a plethora of FPs though I would cottage them (in fact, hypothetically, I might move the palace there if that was the case)

So in short, cottages are laid down in cities with the terrain that warrants them. The capital is usually tailored for Bureaucracy to make it a research hub to leverage the huge boost to commerce and the academy. Secondary commerce cities may be developed later in areas with a lot of river tiles and/or flood plains.

4) Not completely sure about Cologne. Should I be improving those hills? Mining them? Cottaging them? Can Cologne build the settler to go up in the fish/fur spot?

Perfect time to whip Granary in Cologne. (Again, look at the numbers before and after the whip, and the turn after, and when it grows again. I'm trying to get you cognizant of granary optimization and the growth factor of the granary)

No, Cologne will not be cottaged. It's a typical production type city.

Hmmm..you could build a settler there after granary whip. Put whatever OF from whip into settler and put the chop into settler, then maybe grow a little bit before finishing. After the chop, the worker there can use road to move up to grass hill and start mine immediately for city to grow onto to help finish settler.

6) Which tile would be best to settle the new city on? I'm thinking the one tundra tile right in the middle of it all.

I'm not sure exactly what spot you are referring to, but the only spot that should be settled is next to the fish. Otherwise, you will have a city with no growth potential and no ability to do anything. A work boat for the city can be built asap in Cologne after the settler. (a well timed settler whip can help speed up that WB)

7) I'll pause once Alpha comes in before executing any trades, but will most likely replay again from an earlier save to try to tighten things up based on recommendations thus far.

sounds good

The biggest issue for me overall is speed of play. I'm so used to playing much faster, and it's a really hard habit to break. Maybe I should, as @krikav suggested, set a 5 minute timer and just stick to that each turn. Even if it means double and triple checking things. I know it will help with my overall analysis and decision making.

I think all of us at one time played the game fast. Of course, I should point out that the more you play, some of these things will become second nature. So you are learning to pay attention and micro things now, but your pace of play is really up to you. You will get a bit faster play as things start becoming automatic for you. But you should see us when we play the SGOTMs, which typically have a 3 to 4 month timeline for completion. Extreme planning, extreme micro, lotsa fun!

One major question I've had is what to build when there is nothing else pressing at the moment. Should warriors just be the default if there is nothing else that makes sense?

Well, always ask yourself first what the empire needs. Do you have enough workers? Are there more spots to settle? Should I think about attacking someone?

If there are wonders you can queue up, you can use them as placeholders (true placeholders). If you have the Industrious trait, that can really be a boon as your hammers are doubled, such that when someone does complete the wonder you will get a good bit of fail gold. Or you have marble or stone hooked up, whichever one gives the bonus. But even without bonuses, you are putting hammers into something that will pay back a little later. But again, I would do this only if nothing else pressing.

As krikav mentioned above, after Alpha/Currency you can build wealth/research...always a good placeholder when nothing to build presently.

But if neither is available, you can always queue the Barracks for now or a warrior, but you don't want too many of them. It is nice to have a few though since they are great for MP..

Frederick is ORG/PHI. So, cheap LH and CH. I suppose that is another reason to get sailing sooner rather than later (along with foreign trade routes). Reduced civics upkeep maybe speaks to getting Mids for the shift to representation. I think CoL and Civil Service also become priorities in order to leverage bureaucracy and the aforementioned cheap CHs. PHI also means faster GP emergence. Not sure how to leverage this yet, but I'm sure it can be powerful if done properly. Am I on the right track with these thoughts?

Main thing is Fred is Philo. You will produce great people faster. So you can get a real quick academy, but you haven't run the scientists yet. Later you can run a golden age and produce a lot of GSs for bulbing. (Cheap Unis are nice for Space and faster Ox)

Cheap lighthouses are very nice for those seafood cities. Just one Maths chop and they are done, or a quick whip or using whip overflow.

CHs are non-essential buildings, but can be nice later when you have a large empire to quickly get up a few in far away cities.

Reduced maintenance has nothing really to do with your decisions on Civics, but is a nice bonus overall. It is quite helpful on higher levels when maintenance costs rise substantially.

Philo is a top tier trait. Organized is more a mid-tier trait (some think it a bit overrated - I think it a bit underrated myself)

 

[lymond]

In a standard coastal city, normal build is usually granary->lighthouse, but with org this is reversed since you get the lighthouse up earlier and get the benefit quicker.
.

I think that is a bit debatable actually. I think some have done the math on this in the past but I can't remember the results. ORG LH are simply very cheap(same as monument), but doing a LH before gran would probably depend on several factors like the amount of seafood and type, as well as terrain and forests. I will say though that if I'm improving a city after Maths and have a forest ready to chop - likely with a granary in production already, I would put the chop into the LH. But I'd say generally that the growth potential of the granary when you consider the food gained is better than the LH first.

I much rather work coast (2f2c) than grassland hill mines (1F3H) if I really don't have anything worthwhile to build for example.

This is a good point, but I'd caveat it with it being situational. I just don't want Farb to always think that working a coastal tile is better than a mine or something else. You go with your best tiles depending on what you are building. For instance, if you are building a worker/settler you are going to work the mine over the coastal tiles.

With that said, I will indeed often use coastal tiles if I'm in growth mode for something -whipping/golden age preparation, if they are my best growth tiles beyond by specials or whatever.

Also, sometimes one might need to work coastal tiles at certain times for the additional commerce like if you have expanded rapidly or conquested rapidly. Heck, I've even worked 1F2C coastal tiles at times just for the commerce to keep afloat.

 

[Farbulous]

Perfect time to whip Granary in Cologne. (Again, look at the numbers before and after the whip, and the turn after, and when it grows again. I'm trying to get you cognizant of granary optimization and the growth factor of the granary)

I'm not sure exactly what spot you are referring to, but the only spot that should be settled is next to the fish. Otherwise, you will have a city with no growth potential and no ability to do anything. A work boat for the city can be built asap in Cologne after the settler. (a well timed settler whip can help speed up that WB)

Philo is a top tier trait. Organized is more a mid-tier trait (some think it a bit overrated - I think it a bit underrated myself)

1) I think I had just whipped the granary in Cologne (I have been listening, I swear!!)

2) The spot I am referring to is 1SE of fish. The bare tile in the middle of all the beaver.

3) I'm sure there are personal preferences, but is there a list of which traits are considered "top tier"? (I ask because there have been a few leaders I have been drawn to and enjoy playing more than others.)

Thank you as always for the amazing detail and explanation.

 

[krikav]

Farbulous, you have probably figured it out already, that Lymond is both a better player than I am, and he is more in tuned with how to best guide new players. If in any circumstance his and my advice conflict, his is likely closer to the truth in the majority of cases.

 

[Farbulous]

Farbulous, you have probably figured it out already, that Lymond is both a better player than I am, and he is more in tuned with how to best guide new players. If in any circumstance his and my advice conflict, his is likely closer to the truth in the majority of cases.

OK, I legitimately LOLed. Most hilarious post in the thread thus far.
Lymond has been invaluable and super thorough in his guidance, but don't discount yourself - you've offered lots of great insight, and I appreciate all the help I can get.

 

[krikav]

Lymond: I saw this recently: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/granary-or-lighthouse-first.631926/
I have always thought granary was always waaaay better, it seems they are closer than one might think.
And if they are quite close, I would assume that the ORG trait makes LH way better.
I have not done the math and haven't seen any more detailed post however.


Oh, and Farbolous: What I said about coastal tiles above grassland hills it applies in the specific situation when you are struggling to find use of hammers.
If you are in a situation where hammers are of little use, you shouldn't be working hammer tiles as much.
Everything is very situational.

Everyone have their own list of traits, but most seem to lean toward something like this:
Top tier: Fin, Phi, Ind, Spi
Bottom: Agg, Pro, Cha.

But it's really veeery situational, as everything else.

 

[lymond]

lol...krikav

I can certainly be wrong. All advice is good as it brings up ideas and concepts, whether the advice itself is not necessarily totally correct, it does foster discourse and learning.

The spot I am referring to is 1SE of fish.

yep..that the spot...the ice tile

I'm sure there are personal preferences, but is there a list of which traits are considered "top tier"? (I ask because there have been a few leaders I have been drawn to and enjoy playing more than others.)

The really important thing I want to say in response to this question is that ultimately it is how you play the game, not the traits that matter. However, learning how to use the traits you have is beneficial certainly.

Trait lists have been discussed and debated for years. I don't have link to any of that, but you can search for it. There is certainly some subjectivity on the matter, but also a lot of general agreement, especially by the really good players. I'll do a quick hit list:

Top - Philo and FIN
Good - IND, EXP, CHAR, CRE, SPI
Average - IMP and ORG
Bad - AGG, PRO

In fact, for learning, I actually prefer a leader with lesser tier traits simply so that the player does not focus on them too much. I think Washington is a great leader for learning. Good but not overpowering traits that work for you without thinking too much about them. And UU/UB as well that are not a factor.

Toku is another good training leader, cause you basically throw traits out the window

 

[lymond]

Yeah, I don't think that thread was definitive on the subject. But interesting point on the difference between type of seafood, as I had guessed. It would probably take some deep testing to really figure that one out. Size of city and whipping probably a factor as well.

Charismatic is definitely not a bad trait. In fact it is very close to the top. Top 5 leader in the game:

Spoiler Merci :

De Gaulle

Oh..I meant to add my personal favorite trait. Not saying it is the best, but what I like to have:

Spoiler :

Expansive

why? It gives bonus to the two most important items in the game

 

[Oblivionyx]

Hmm, I gather from all these that slavery is a great civic in general. How do you deal with the unhappiness? Do you just wait 10 turns then whip again, or tech Hereditary Rule and pile up military in your cities?

Why is PRO a bad trait? Isn't more defenses for your cities a good thing? Of course it doesn't matter if the enemy can't reach your cities, but it could help in keeping your newly-conquered cities. Or maybe it's just not that great compared to other traits...

 

[krikav]

Regarding PRO: It's mostly what you mention last. In comparisson with other traits it's bad.
The free drill promotion on gunpowder units is nice, but other than that the bonuses almost never come into play.
You build walls perhaps once in every 50 games, and then only in 1 city at a chokepoint.
The city defender bonus is something that you don't have use for in most cases either. In a newly conqured city you might yourself promote one or two units with city garrison, but there is no need to have it on all of your gunpowder units.
If your units are spending most of their time defending cities, something really went wrong in your game.

Regarding slavery unhappiness.
What you try to do, is to aim for a 2population whip, or a 3 population whip of the city, timed to the number of turns it takes for the city to regrow.
If you have a city with plenty of food, that can grow from pop3 to pop6 in 10 turns, then that city should probably be whipped from 6->3 every 10 turns.

What you want to avoid is to make alot of 1pop whips or even 2pop whips in a city that regrows that population faster than the unhappines fades away.
When I say "avoid" though, it's something that you can't just stop doing and then be done with it. In many cases it makes a whole lot of sense to stack up even 100+ turns of unhappines in cities.
The long-term fate of many cities is to be whipped from pop4 to pop2 as long as it's not unhappy once it's at pop3.
And there are plenty of exceptions.
In the current NC game, I 1pop whip alot of warriors, something that you usually never do. I do this in island cities that have almost no production at all, and I do it to get the overflow into lighthouses, so that I can 1pop whip lighthouses. After I have 1pop whipped granaries as an expansive leader.

Also, in most common games, there are 2-3 cities where you don't whip much at all.
The food to hammers conversion rate is better if you whip at low population compared to if you whip at a high population, since each population point requires more food. (You need more food to grow from pop19 to pop20, compared to pop1 to pop2, but when you whip away that population you still only get 30 hammers.)
Your capital is one example, and production city with heroic epic is another likely example.
If you have a city dedicated to running alot of specialists and generating great people, that is another city that likely won't see much whipping.

 

[Farbulous]

Update!!

I went back and replayed from an earlier save, trying to maximize whips for granaries, and making sure to switch over to scientists once library was built in Berlin. Already got my GS and built an academy in Berlin. Hamburg also has a library now, but I wasn't sure if I should be switching to scientists there as well since it'll stifle growth. I've been throwing down a lot of cottages because I haven't known what to do with worker turns, although I'm wondering if I should have had them roading to Sitting Bull and Pericles. Alpha is also in, and I wanted to check in before I made any trades. Also I'm wondering what to do when offered the option to switch to a religion. What is the best policy here?

So, the big questions:

1) Foreign trade routes... do I actually have to build a road that connect to their road or city? (not worried about the dynamics of water trade routes at this point)

2) Specialists and when to use them, at least at this point in the game?

3) What to do about religion once they enter your lands?

4) How do I best engage in trades? I guess specifically at this point tech trades, but also resources, etc.

Spoiler T80 :

The North:

The South:

 

[lymond]

I've been throwing down a lot of cottages because I haven't known what to do with worker turns, although I'm wondering if I should have had them roading to Sitting Bull and Pericles. Alpha is also in, and I wanted to check in before I made any trades. Also I'm wondering what to do when offered the option to switch to a religion. What is the best policy here?

The bold part is one of the bigger things that concerned me about the past turnset, but I'll address later when I do the critique/suggestions. I will answer these questions first.

Religion is obviously tied directly to the diplo side of things. Ofc, Religion offers various benefits as well. However, the issue on whether to adopt a religion or when depends quite a bit on how religions have spread, who adopts a religion, and the type of leader. That is going to take you some time to get a feel for. Regardless, there is absolutely no need for you to adopt a religion early and I see no reason to do so now. 2 leaders have adopted a religion (AIs will always adopt a religion if they found one or one spreads to them). So for now, just let the religions spread and see how they shake out. We can think about this later.

So, the big questions:

1) Foreign trade routes... do I actually have to build a road that connect to their road or city? (not worried about the dynamics of water trade routes at this point)

I had actually recommended going Sailing after Alpha. Currency is indeed a great next tech and will open up some options, but Sailing would have given at least some foreign trade routes and the trait boosted LHs for Munich and Frankfurt. None of the AIs even have Sailing yet ..ha (I always have to adapt my thinking when looking at Noble or lower level difficulty in terms of tech pace).

With that said, you have a good bit of workers that appear to all have been focused around Berlin, so one of them could have started a road earlier to Peri or SB. (Sailing will open a route to Peri by virtue of the river, not sure on SB)

2) Specialists and when to use them, at least at this point in the game?

Well, we've already mentioned the scientists in Berlin for that first academy. An early priority after the first couple of settlers from cap. Later more cities can run scientists with the expectation of popping more later for some bulbing. Munich can run some soon and should try to keep one or two running - you'll want to do so anyway when hitting happy caps.

Berlin can probably focus more on growth and using best tiles now, especially to finish settler. Probably about time to start thinking of getting some MP in Berlin.

3) What to do about religion once they enter your lands?

I think this is addressed, but generally you would just ignore it for now. If someone asks you to adopt, then you have to analyze how that particular religion has spread globally and who has adopted or not adopted a religion. (Note: If you are Spiritual you can always accept the request temporarily - no anarchy - for the diplo boost and switch out of it in 5 turns if it would otherwise not be diplomatically prudent) But no Spiritual means anarchy so it is not a decision to take lightly.

Sometimes early religions spread out somewhat equally with various AI in different early religions - maybe some in the same religion. Other times you may even get a case where a single religion has spread to the known AI and they are all in one religion - no harm in adopting it then if you have it yourself. But if AIs are in different religions then it is likely best to ignore religion for now or possibly consider joining a religious bloc.

Just keep in mind that some AIs favor religion (zealots) far more than others, so the diplo boost/malus can vary dramatically. For example, Izzy ain't going to like you if you are in a different religion. Monty is pretty zealous as well, and does not like anybody much anyway. On the other hand, AIs like Peri and SB are not much into religion so you don't take a big hit either way. Let's see - who else is on this map. Charles like religion quite a bit. Genghis could care less. Sal is a zealot...he will love you if you join the brotherhood and hate you otherwise.

So, anyway, in short, for now, probably best to ignore religion until you get a better feel for diplomacy. If a request comes up though, you can always stop and ask.

4) How do I best engage in trades? I guess specifically at this point tech trades, but also resources, etc.

Tech trades should be done judiciously. Your main goal is being able to trade for major techs of the time period so you can save on having to tech those yourself. You want to avoid trading for little techs like those little religious and archery.

IW is a good thing to trade for as we have mentioned, among other things later.

There is also the idea of "evaluating trades". That is, going to diplo screen and checking the value of techs against techs. Currency really helps with this later as you can check tech vs. techs+gold. What this does is allows you to determine whether an AI is actually in the process or close to teching something. Now, you see what Peri is teching cause you focused EP on him (a good idea actually that I don't remember discussing earlier). So you know what he is teching, but you don't know what the rest of the AIs are teching.

Evaluating trades can help in determining when best to fire off a trade, even if just trading the tech directly for gold.

At the same time you want to be judicious in what techs you trade away, especially military advantage. But if an AI is close to finishing a tech anyway you might as well get some gold out of it.

Now, this is Noble level. The tech pace is much slower. You are already starting quite a lead on techs anyway. So much of what I discussed above will be felt more as you move up levels. But at minimum, I see you picking up IW in the near future (Charles is not trading it now, but as more AIs tech it then IW will open up for trade. AIs tend not to trade monopoly techs)

Another thing to note is Worst Enemies. Be aware of who is worst enemy of whom, as trading to one might piss off the other leading to up to a -4 diplo malus. That malus is related to trade value and how long you have know the AIs. After a time you might not get a diplo malus at all, but more trading will.

For instance, Peri is WE of Sal. Actually the only trade right now I think that may be worth something is trading Writing to Peri for Masonry. Not sure how long you have known Sal, so you might not get a diplo hit at all for a Masonry - Writing trade. Anyway, I would do it. No other trading until after Currency so you can trade old techs for gold.

As for resources, even before Currency, you want to gift extra copies of resources to AI to start the diplo boost. It takes time but resource trading will eventually lead to +1 diplo and later +2 diplo (share resources bonuses). So you can gift resources, or, of course, trade for resources you don't have - especially happies. After Currency, look for opportunities to trade extra resources for GPT. Basically, keep in mind that you want as much of the AIs available GPT for yourself.

Also, note that early on I might even gift/trade single resources - generally health - for a while to start the process. (A little extra benefit from the Expansive trait) Or consider a case for trading say a single health resource (pigs, deer, sheep, seafood) for a double health resource you don't have like corn, wheat or rice. You know, just little things to think of that might actually pay off later.

 

[Farbulous]

Such good, detailed info. Thanks @lymond
Looking forward to the crit/suggestions

 

[lymond]

Ok..that was long, so I will post separately a few thoughts on the current status of the game.

1) What is wrong with Cologne (think tiles worked and builds)

2) Workers seemed a bit bunch up here. I think maybe a bit too much focus on cottages, and not enough on chops and improvement. I really would have like to see that settler chopped faster out of Berlin whereas it seems workers are just now starting chops.

3) You seem to be neglecting the whip. Libraries, granaries? don't just sit there watching these things slow build. Whip them and move on to something else. (there still seems to be some disconnect here on the learning process)

4) With that said, I'd like for Munich to grow one more turn. Start a Settler there > put one turn of production > then 3 pop whip (6>3)

5) Any tile that Hamburg does not share with Berlin will be farmed not cottaged. So you just wasted 8 worker turns on cottages near Hamburg.

6) After GS popped, Berlin probably best focusing citizens on best tiles for production/commerce.

7) It's 875BC and you have 5 cities. I think you could have at least 7 or 8 cities by now. It's really about how you manage things and the decisions you make. But you have the land and certainly the production for it, and your economy is great.

8) I had mentioned this earlier, but the warrior standing in Peri's land is doing nothing. Move him further W to bust the future city spot.

Lastly, move warrior from Ham to Munich. Warrior can move into Munich next turn to remove unhappy Munich will gain with growth. Ham is fine for happy at the moment , but can finish warrior this turn. New warrior can move to Berlin as this city should focus growth after settler.

Oh..and what are you doing with your scout? Not time to send him out when there are still areas of concern for barb spawn.

(Berlin will build no more settlers after the next one. Already mentioned a quick one outta Munich. Any other settlers will come from other cities like maybe Cologne).

Fish/Fur would be first priority as you might lose it to peri.